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  1. #1
    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
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    Default Imagining Libya, a Decade from now

    Hat tip to FP Blog for this commentary looking forward:http://www.foreignpolicy.com/article...m_now?page=0,0

    The author is an optimist:
    My prediction is that Libya will be messy -- but closer to the democratic end of the spectrum than to the chaotic, autocratic, or partitioned outcomes.
    davidbfpo

  2. #2
    Council Member Fuchs's Avatar
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    How much "Europe" can do militarily is a question of will / interest / necessity.

    We COULD have invaded Libya with three million soldiers if we WANTED.

    We COULD have created additional airfields on Sicily and Crete and massed more than a thousand combat aircraft there for operations over Libya if we WANTED.



    The Libya drôle de intervention was really done with a very low amount of willpower/interest, with the small finger of the left hand.

  3. #3
    Council Member Graycap's Avatar
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    IMHO the construction of a "solid" libyan future will depend very much from western and arab approach to what we call "support".

    For Europe it could be a very good test if we europeans are able to conceive a unitarian foreign policy. If Italy, France, GB, Germany will have their "man in Tripoli" (with his own gang of armed individuals, tribe etc...) the outcome is predictable: total caos.
    Everyone who knows the Libyan character knows that everyone will scramble to find a way to gain some power (and money) in the business of restarting the country. Corruption will be rampant and now we have a bunch of weapons to add tothe normal burocratic means to manage a power base and gain some backshish.

    When the NATO will exhaust his military role there will be no political steering with such a strong legitimacy. Then the EU should kick in but we sould find the Ashton ghost.... (Anyone where is she?)

    Italy seems topoint to Jalloud, France to Jalil, maybe Great Britain is in touch with someone in Bengazi. If European politician doesn' understand that only a unified approach could achieve something the future will be bleak.

    Italy has tried this strategy: it backfired at the first occasion because we could not offer any kind of political shield with this US administration.
    France (if Sarkozy could be called France) seems to have a better understanding of this strange "Obama doctrine" but without Italy is very difficult to stabilize Libya. The same for GB.

    Let's hope for a european awakening. It's the only real strategic way out.

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    Council Member M-A Lagrange's Avatar
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    Default Libya: Ensuring a Smooth and Peaceful Transition into the Post-Qaddafi Era

    ICG just issued a letter on post Qaddafi Libya. It resumes well most of the worries and challenges for future Libya:
    As Libyans prepare for the Qaddafi regime's imminent demise, the country faces a pivotal moment of historic proportions. Steps taken in the next few days and weeks will decisively shape the post-Qaddafi order. The new, still nascent, Libyan leadership, faces a dual, difficult legacy which it will need to overcome: four decades of an autocratic regime that failed to build genuine state institutions and six months of a civil war that, together with inevitable human and material losses, exposed old divisions and fissures while prompting new ones. The challenge for that leadership, as well as for international actors who enabled its drive into Tripoli, is threefold: to establish a broadly inclusive and representative transitional governing body; address immediate security risks; and find an appropriate balance between, on the one hand, the search for accountability and justice and, on the other, the imperative of avoiding arbitrary score-settling and revenge.
    As rebel fighters stream into Tripoli, they will come upon the collapse of a quasi-state, the Jamahiriya, or so-called "state of the masses" - a somewhat jerry-built contraption created by Muammar Qaddafi that, however sincere it might have been at its revolutionary inception, became a vehicle to advance his personal and political ambitions. It is this twin challenge - replacing an autocratic regime and rebuilding a new state from the ground up - that will be so daunting for the new leadership.
    Further complicating this task are the inevitable difficulties in establishing the national legitimacy of Libya's new leaders. The Transitional National Council (TNC), created in rebel-held Benghazi in March 2011, could stake a clear claim to representing Libyans in areas free of regime control, and it has done a remarkable job in constituting basic institutions to manage civic life in those areas and attract international support. Yet the TNC never could claim to represent all Libyans, even if it broadly reflected their aspirations, for the simple reason that most Libyans, especially in the capital Tripoli, were not in a position to freely voice their opinions or participate openly in the TNC, whose membership was therefore wei ghted, by default, toward those in liberated zones. The TNC will now have to reflect in its membership all of Libya in its full diversity, and merge its administrative operations with those of the remaining, functioning public sector institutions.
    Six months of insurgency, while ultimately successful, created, laid bare or exacerbated divisions - both within the country at large, along regional, ethnic or tribal lines and within the rebel leadership, as evidenced in the 28 July assassination, apparently at rebel hands, of rebel commander Abdel Fattah Younes. A clash of competing legitimacies - between forces based in the east and those based in the west, those who fired the first shots, those who first entered Tripoli, those who remained in Libya throughout the Qaddafi era (and, in some cases, worked for the former regime) and those who return from the diaspora - is virtually inevitable. There will be, too, tensions between secular and Islamist forces. None of t his suggests that it will be impossible to create a unified government, or a single military force under civilian control, merely that much hard work will need to be done very quickly to reduce the real risk of the country slipping into chaos.
    In this context, Libya's rulers will need to urgently turn their attention to the following areas:
    Political legitimacy: Libya's new leaders, led by the TNC, should convene, at the earliest opportunity, an inaugural council meeting in Tripoli, inviting representatives from all parts of the country and all strands of society and the opposition - various rebel groups, as well as local underground resistance groups in Tripoli and elsewhere - to participate. Indeed, the TNC should strive to be fully inclusive, embracing qualified former-regime elements who were not direct perpetrators of human rights abuses, lest their exclusion create the conditions for a future insurgency of the kind that blighted post-2003 Iraq. The TNC should strive to be transparent in its actions and, along with local leaders and rebel groups, should c ommunicate its decisions clearly, explaining its motivation for each step in a situation where people can be expected to harbour an innate distrust of authority. Particularly important to Libyans is transparency in contracts and provision of services. The expanded council should continue to make clear it is a strictly provisional body charged with managing day-to-day affairs. Its focus should be on providing law and order and ensuring proper delivery and functioning of essential services until elections can be held.
    Security, law and order: How the new leaders deal with law and order will be essential in determining popular perceptions of their qualifications to run the country in the interim period. In the critical first days, the erstwhile rebel groups should fill the security vacuum left by the surrender or disappearance of the former regime's security forces. They should stop distributing arms to the population and instead begin collecting and securing them. They should integrate whatever viable elements of the former regime's security forces can be retained into a new structure led by commanders appointed and supervised by the interim ruling council. The disparate, mostly community-based rebel movements and their various leaders= 0and commanders should take steps to protect and ensure the well-being of all Libyans, with special care for internally displaced people, Libyans and non-Libyans. Particular attention should be paid to protecting citizens of sub-Saharan nations who were swept up in the conflict, whether as hapless victims, paid mercenaries or misplaced migrants. There is also a risk that Libyans of Saharan or sub-Saharan African origin could be victimised by retributive or retaliatory actions. In this respect, every effort should be made to protect groups such as the Mashashia, the Twergha and other native Libyans from the country's centre and south.
    Transitional justice and reconciliation: One of the most glaring omissions of Iraq's transition from tyranny was the new rulers' failure to establish a mechanism to hold to account those who committed major crimes, while allowing others to clear their record or obtain pardon on condition they provided full disclosure of their participation in the regime. Instead, de-Baathification became a political instrument of disenfranchisement and retribution. This explains Iraqis' enduring inability to reach a degree of closure about the past and accounts for the continuing impetus toward insurgency.
    Libyans should not be led down this destructive track of politicised score-settling and witch-hunts. One of the interim ruling council's immediate tasks should be to urge fighters under its command and the population at large to foreswear any reprisal against former-regime elements, including members of the Qadhafi family, who should be treated in accordance with principles of international law. Those suspected of crimes should be detained and brought to justice before proper judicial institutions. The council also should establish a special commission, comprising independent Libyan figures of impeccable qualifications and reputation, charged with processing persons accused of crimes with a view to integrating most back into society while= 0handing the worst offenders, including Qadhafi's inner circle, over to the courts (and those indicted by the International Criminal Court to the ICC in The Hague).
    All of these priorities - whether calling together a truly representative interim council; ensuring law and order along with efficient weapons collection; or putting in train transparent justice mechanisms - will require clear, consistent messaging on the part of the emerging leadership. In fluid situations such as prevail now in Libya, the risk of misinformation - and consequent panic - is acute. Emphasis must be placed, from the start, on effective communication. In this respect, initial statements emanating from the TNC leadership to the effect that all Libyans should show self-restraint, respect the rule of law, avoid street justice and accord due process to figures from the Qaddafi regime are to be welcomed - and put into effect.
    Members of the international community should match their military campaign with a new and commensurate political, diplomatic and reconstruction/development-focused effort. In this context, the UN should be given a central role in the transition process. In providing assistance to Libya, however, international actors they should steer clear of any overbearing tendency to dictate terms for international aid, instead working jointly through the UN to deliver assistance requested by the interim ruling council and eventually its elected successors. In the short term, there is the risk of a humanitarian crisis, and - in addition to the lifting of sanctions imposed by the UN Security Council -- significant international work should go into 20helping provide sustenance and shelter to those in need.
    As the struggle to bring an end to the Qadhafi regime comes to a close, the effort to build a new Libya whose government is representative, which meets the basic aspirations of its people and avoids the settling of past scores begins. Amid today's understandable euphoria, the magnitude of tomorrow's challenge ought not be underestimated.
    http://www.crisisgroup.org/en/public...ddafi-era.aspx

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    Quote Originally Posted by Graycap View Post
    IMHO the construction of a "solid" libyan future will depend very much from western and arab approach to what we call "support".

    For Europe it could be a very good test if we europeans are able to conceive a unitarian foreign policy. If Italy, France, GB, Germany will have their "man in Tripoli" (with his own gang of armed individuals, tribe etc...) the outcome is predictable: total caos.
    Everyone who knows the Libyan character knows that everyone will scramble to find a way to gain some power (and money) in the business of restarting the country. Corruption will be rampant and now we have a bunch of weapons to add tothe normal burocratic means to manage a power base and gain some backshish.

    When the NATO will exhaust his military role there will be no political steering with such a strong legitimacy. Then the EU should kick in but we sould find the Ashton ghost.... (Anyone where is she?)
    Italy seems topoint to Jalloud, France to Jalil, maybe Great Britain is in touch with someone in Bengazi. If European politician doesn' understand that only a unified approach could achieve something the future will be bleak.

    Italy has tried this strategy: it backfired at the first occasion because we could not offer any kind of political shield with this US administration.
    France (if Sarkozy could be called France) seems to have a better understanding of this strange "Obama doctrine" but without Italy is very difficult to stabilize Libya. The same for GB.

    Let's hope for a european awakening. It's the only real strategic way out.
    I saw part of an interview with her on BBC/Sky news. She spoke a lot but didn't really say anything if you get me. I won't get into an Ashton rant. It seems the EU are the best vehicle for the post conflict Libya, security sector reform, soft power policies etc. All about how long it takes to find Big G (Gaddafi) whether or not those around him will no defect.

  6. #6
    Council Member Fuchs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graycap View Post
    For Europe it could be a very good test if we europeans are able to conceive a unitarian foreign policy. If Italy, France, GB, Germany will have their "man in Tripoli" (with his own gang of armed individuals, tribe etc...) the outcome is predictable: total caos.
    I guess we'll do something similar as we did with the Palestinian authorities, except with a bit more personal attention by the French president.




    Now some relevant humour...
    Last edited by Fuchs; 08-24-2011 at 04:12 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuchs View Post
    I guess we'll do something similar as we did with the Palestinian authorities, except with a bit more personal attention by the French president.




    Now some relevant humour...
    Gives new meaning to the phrase "the CNN effect"!

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    Lots of smileys and lots of jokes in this thread.

    After the Soviet defeat in Afghanistan the Taliban emerged.

    After the PLO defeat in Beirut, Hezbollah emerged in southern Lebanon and Hamas emerged in Gaza.

    After Saddam Hussein was ousted, Moqtada Al-Sadr emerged in Baghdad.

    Lots of smiles and lots of jokes in 1988, 1982 and 2003 respectively, lots of tears and gnashing of teeth afterwards.

    Are we to assume that democracy will emerge naturally in post-Gadhafi Libya?

  9. #9
    Council Member Fuchs's Avatar
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    You might want to check the timelines.

    There were multiple years, many events of relevance between your seeming cause-effect dates.

  10. #10
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default Tears and gnashiung accomplish nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    Lots of smileys and lots of jokes in this thread.
    Laughter OTOH is generally beneficial.
    ... the Taliban emerged...Hezbollah emerged in southern Lebanon and Hamas emerged in Gaza...Moqtada Al-Sadr emerged in Baghdad.
    And, lo, the world is still here.

    A world that survived the Romans, Sassanids, the Khans and World War II didn't even blink at any of the post 1980 stuff. Nor should it have; they were small things. Very small. Not terribly significant until we made them seem to be...
    Are we to assume that democracy will emerge naturally in post-Gadhafi Libya?
    I don't know who constitutes your "we" but I certainly do not assume that -- nor do I care whether it emerges or not. That's the Libyan's affair and no concern of mine. Nor should any American really be that concerned, none of our business and our foolish attempts to 'foster democracy' here and there over the past 60 or so years have done more harm to the world and people in it than have any of the post '80 events cited.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    Are we to assume that democracy will emerge naturally in post-Gadhafi Libya?
    No one is assuming this, least of all the Libyans who want it who are well aware of the magnitude of the task.

    We can, however, say that the chances of some form of representative and responsive government are infinitely higher than they were when Qaddafi was ruling the place.
    They mostly come at night. Mostly.


  12. #12
    Council Member Graycap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuchs View Post
    I guess we'll do something similar as we did with the Palestinian authorities, except with a bit more personal attention by the French president.

    The situation is quite different. Palestinians have no oil, and there is no Israel with its own power and policy.
    In Libya (and Tunisia) the only international player with great opportunities and great risks is Europe and european countries. Europe could start a narrative closing its past and building better future.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fuchs View Post

    Now some relevant humour...
    To see what CNN has become is really depressing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rex Bryen
    One refrain I heard quite often in Libya was that the prolonged struggle to overthrow Qaddafi may have helped to build a stronger sense of national identity and purpose. This isn't to say the challenges aren't serious--they are, given the factionalism that already exists. However it was striking to hear people say "perhaps its a good thing we didn't win in a week, and instead had to work together to achieve this outcome."
    Strongly concur. In another forum I wrote some months ago that I thought better for everyone a very slow evolution of miliary operations that could make possible a poltical manouvering of differet actors internal and external. We should also sayy that slowness is possible oly if risk of retaliation is little. This lack of any retaliation is the piece of the puzzle that is difficult to understand.
    Rex do you know anything about the central bank situation? It seems strange to me that TNC, with its need for money, has not occupied it and take possession of the caveau.

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    From my understanding, it seems unlikely to me that the future of Libya is going to be determined by anyone who actually lives there. Gaddafi did a really thorough job of pacifying most of his population--primary evidence for which being the hilarious ineffectiveness of the 'revolution'. The rebels had to be wheeled into Tripoli like an invalid. Now that they're there, I don't see them suddenly getting the healing power of Jay-sus and miraculously being able to walk again. The only question is who's going to be the power behind the wheeled throne. Given the US's disinterest, it seems like it'll come down to Britain and France versus the Arab League. And the AL has the money...

    I mean, granted that running a war and running a country are two very different things--but if you can't beat the guys who couldn't beat pickup trucks with tanks, I'm not sure what you're going to have what it takes to run a country, either.
    Last edited by motorfirebox; 08-25-2011 at 01:47 PM.

  14. #14
    Council Member Fuchs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graycap View Post
    To see what CNN has become is really depressing.
    Some 'relief' after all that depression...

    CNN and Fox News are regular contributors for screenshots with geography or science fails.


    BBC World News and German TV News ain't immune to that, either.

    **************

    Again: Look at Kosovo and the Palestinian authority.
    Now subtract the transfers and look only at the know-how transfer (since Libya can pay its bills with oil).
    We will send policemen for police training, lawyers, judges, bureaucrats, 65-80 yrs old politicians, some corporate CEOs...

    I doubt that France's government is dumb enough to become heavily involved. It's more likely that they will do just enough to get some special relationship and a good reputation in Libya - and some photo ops for the French president.

    Quite the same for Britain.

    Berlusconi is probably too busy to care much about Libya (unless he gets a faible for bellydancers, of course).

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    But will "just enough" be enough? It seems like Libya, with its proven inability to mount a real revolution, is ripe pickings to be somebody's pet oil field. Will whoever ends up running the place be willing to share with anybody that doesn't take a continuing active role?

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