The Transformation Mistake

[RTK]

One major downfall of Army ROTC is in many cases, the instructors for these future LTs are old retired LTCs and MAJs who have no operational experience in the GWOT. Now, with that being said, I understand we can't ship all of our recent COs to ROTC, but it makes sense. But soon, there should be an effort to get young combat vets (to include NCOs, especially former PSGs) to ROTC immediately so that they can educate these future PLs on what is expected of them as leaders in combat.

Six in one, half dozen in the other. Do we send them to ROTC to mold 30 cadets, 5 of whom probably won't commission, or do we send them to the Officer Leadership Schools where they'll be exposed to every 2LT in their branch who's preparing to be a PL? I support COA 2.

[JKM4767]

On that note, I highly recommend Anton Mayer's Once an Eagle, though I gather most people in this forum have read it.

I see many Courtney Massengales in the army. Unfortunately, I'm beginning to see them at lower ranks than I did 7 years ago.

On the contrary, as a PL, I felt I had a better relationship with my fellow PLs than I ever could have imagined. Now, granted, many times it was "us against them" (field grades); banding together to urge higher command to use better tactics, implement smarter training and give more "rope" to LTs to get the mission done. I haven't seen much backstabbing to this point; more of a feeling of "hey this sucks, but we are going to get through it together". So much depends on the unit and it's climate. What I have seen after two Iraq tours is my peers drop from the Army faster than you could imagine...some battalions suffering 90% losses of combat arms Jr. CPTs, primarily because they don't believe in the ability or intentions of their field grade leaders; kind of a "these are the idiots that I will continue to work for?". For the most part, I have seen many junior officers band together, as opposed to "Massengalism". Just an observation from my very small foxhole.

[JKM4767]

Six in one, half dozen in the other. Do we send them to ROTC to mold 30 cadets, 5 of whom probably won't commission, or do we send them to the Officer Leadership Schools where they'll be exposed to every 2LT in their branch who's preparing to be a PL? I support COA 2.

Good call. Although in OBC, there is already so much crap to "learn", I'm afraid the school time might cut into PL time. Haha. I would have loved to had a guy come in and tell me what I needed to know. I sure could have used any information showing up in Iraq as a 2LT in '03!

[RTK]

Good call. Although in OBC, there is already so much crap to "learn", I'm afraid the school time might cut into PL time. Haha. I would have loved to had a guy come in and tell me what I needed to know. I sure could have used any information showing up in Iraq as a 2LT in '03!

Not sure when you went through OBC or what branch you are, but with the BOLC concept now, new LTs are brought through very regimented and organized blocks of instruction. In my block, recon tactics, we teach them more how to think rather than what specifically to think. They learn the fundamentals and the importance of being a master of fundamentals. Once this occurs, it breeds the versatility and adaptivity that is required of today's combat leader.

The bottom line is we build the foundation. The gaining unit builds the structure on top of it.

[RTK]

On the contrary, as a PL, I felt I had a better relationship with my fellow PLs than I ever could have imagined. Now, granted, many times it was "us against them" (field grades); banding together to urge higher command to use better tactics, implement smarter training and give more "rope" to LTs to get the mission done. I haven't seen much backstabbing to this point; more of a feeling of "hey this sucks, but we are going to get through it together". So much depends on the unit and it's climate. What I have seen after two Iraq tours is my peers drop from the Army faster than you could imagine...some battalions suffering 90% losses of combat arms Jr. CPTs, primarily because they don't believe in the ability or intentions of their field grade leaders; kind of a "these are the idiots that I will continue to work for?". For the most part, I have seen many junior officers band together, as opposed to "Massengalism". Just an observation from my very small foxhole.

Not to say I don't see a fair share of Sam Damons as well.

Good units have the "junior officer mafia" that breeds within a good unit. Unfortunately, there's a lemming effect to that; when one decides to get out, a herd seems to follow. So is life. My peer group had that happen (which I was initially a part of before I pulled back my REFRAD two months later).

[JKM4767]

I am a pre-BOLC guy, but sounds like Armor has the right idea. There, literally is not many ways to train PLs for OIF. It's all reactive. I am glad you guys have seen the light and are doing the right things. Hopefully FA catches on, I haven't heard much from Sill about changes at OBC and CCC.

[Steve Blair]

One major downfall of Army ROTC is in many cases, the instructors for these future LTs are old retired LTCs and MAJs who have no operational experience in the GWOT. Now, with that being said, I understand we can't ship all of our recent COs to ROTC, but it makes sense. But soon, there should be an effort to get young combat vets (to include NCOs, especially former PSGs) to ROTC immediately so that they can educate these future PLs on what is expected of them as leaders in combat.

Actually you're starting to see people with GWOT time showing up as ROTC instructors. Mainline ROTC instructors are never retired (that's JROTC), although you do get many who view ROTC as a last assignment before retiring.

That said, I do see many ways ROTC could be better used. I can't think of many better ways to get future FAOs (aside from OCS-type programs) into the service. The AF draws many of its research people in through ROTC, which is a mixed blessing. But ROTC does really allow the military to draw on a pool that might otherwise be lost to it: the kid who's already in school, wants to serve his or her country, but also wants to finish school. Some of our best people (at my det, anyhow) come in this way. You can also draw on a slightly older base, including folks who have real life experience that will prove useful operationally (police, fire, medics, overseas living, and so on).

If 5 cadets don't commission, that's 5 people who didn't soak up much money in the great scheme of things and won't get anyone killed. Seems like a good trade to me...

[JKM4767]

Steve,
You are incorrect about retirees. I don't know if you've heard of this, but at my University, there are 3 "contractors" (retired field grades) that teach MS I and II courses. They are still there, because I called my alma mater for a job as an ROTC instructor and the PMS told me they don't have any active duty CPT slots for instructors. He said all instructors slots are currently filled by retirees. http://armyrotc.ksu.edu/cadre.php
It looks like they've added even more according to their website.

[Steve Blair]

That's a new trend, then, and one we haven't seen here. They have slotted some MSGTs in as instructors, but that's about it. The AF hasn't gone near this at all, although we're having a hard time getting officers released for APAS duty right now.

A K-State grad, eh? I went there and worked there and at Fort Riley for some years before getting back up here.

[120mm]

I just did a year as an ROTC contractor. Not a bad program, imho, and it's cheap for the Army. Our Active Duty guys were not particularly suited for ROTC duty.

ROTC is the place where you send good leaders to get divorces and UCMJ for sleeping with hot female cadets. NOT a place you want to send your best combat leadership.

Now, the older instructors have their problems, but "experience" a future LT gets in ROTC has marginal utility by the time they get combat leadership duty. Commission, then train, should be the Army Standard.

Edited to add: Why not take the job at Pittsburgh State if KSU is full?

www.goarmyrotc.com is the website to COMtech, which runs the ROTC contracting program

[Tom Odom]

Not to say I don't see a fair share of Sam Damons as well.

Good units have the "junior officer mafia" that breeds within a good unit. Unfortunately, there's a lemming effect to that; when one decides to get out, a herd seems to follow. So is life. My peer group had that happen (which I was initially a part of before I pulled back my REFRAD two months later).

You made me laugh and remember when I was a 1st Lieutenant and the promotion time to Captain had been stretched to nearly 5 years. A friend and I started the "Lieutenants Protective Association," as a social and very much protective measure to cover neophytes from the predations of certain company commanders. Funny that we named our group, "The Lannie Kenton Lieutenants Protective Association," for a 2LT who never should have been commissioned. My battalion commander actually called me in and told me as I was headed south on a convoy from Bragg to Eglin AFB, "Tom, I am giving you Lt Kenton for this exercise. Take him with you. Keep him out of trouble. And bring him back that way."

Good to see that junior officers continue to exhibit a certain level of herd mentality

Best

Tom