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Thread: Definition of a raid

  1. #21
    Council Member jcustis's Avatar
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    It would be aerial in nature, but if Israel bombs a Iranian nuke program facility, that would essentially be a raid.

  2. #22
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default The Guts to try...

    The erstwhile motto of the flawed Desert One Raid that was Operation Eagle Claw has bearing and merit. Some raids will not be total successes; most will be of some benefit unless total disasters. Even Dieppe doesn't fall to that level...

    Fuchs:
    Why not?
    True and good catch, The repressed Brigand in me came out instead of the military planner.

    There are indeed things other than plunder that need taking ...

    jcustis:
    Intel will never be perfect, and if there are gaps, the planners just need to refer to the bullet above and try to get it in the box as much as possible...

    -If the intel appears to be good to the planners at the time, there is no reason to do more than formulate the plan, apply the resources, and execute.
    Amen to that! The search for metrics and perfection is IMO simply refined risk avoidance. We can do better.
    ...Pretty good guts to try if you ask me. The intel wasn't eve good, if you as me, but he trusted his subordinates to execute violently and with precision, and sent them on their way.

    All he did was monitor the radio from his CP to be ready to offer other resources to the force going in...
    Good man that.
    Imagine that...
    I can, seen a few of those -- and I thank the Gods and Stars that there are more like him out there, more than the alter egos...

    Those are the folks that keep me sane...

  3. #23
    Council Member ganulv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuchs View Post
    "berfall" exists, but it's not the same as raid. "berfall" is merely a sudden attack. It can even be applied to stationary context (Feuerberfall, an activity that even artillery can do) and generally misses the planned withdrawal component.
    The lack of equivalent term would then seem to have something to do with the fact that as a synthetic language German offers more options for descriptive single terms than does English. But as mentioned, none of the cited terms imply the withdrawal aspect of a raid. The contemporary term is descended from the Scots term for ‘road,’ so ingress and egress are wrapped up in the etymology. [LINK to the relevant OED article for anyone interested.]

    I don't think such a case exists.
    The Pancho Villa Expedition, maybe? But given the duration I guess you get into the issue of whether you should differentiate a strategic raid from a punitive expedition. I was actually lead to this forum by my effort to interpret 17th and 18th century military journals associated with European punitive expeditions against American Indian groups (the Sullivan Expedition against the Haudenosaunee is perhaps the most widely known, and still widely discussed by the descends of both sides). These would involve multi-week incursions to destroy structures and crops. It was clear to both sides that the expedition was not capable of any long term occupation of the territory, but whether the occupation was brief enough to qualify as a raid I could not say. And it may not really matter to anyone but the most pedantic, of course.



    In the 17th and 18th century Eastern Woodlands warfare often took the form of a type of raid referred to in English as “cutting off.” In one of his books Wayne E. Lee has a good summary of cutting off (he and I disagree on a couple of the details in his summary, but it is very well done regardless). One example which impresses me greatly because I have seen the terrain (and anyone on the forum who has been to Mount Yonah almost surely has, as well) is the c. 1720 Creek raid on the eastern Cherokee settlement shown below. While the settlement’s men were away to trade a Creek war sacked the community and made off with those women and children not killed before a response was mounted from the settlement at the western end of the valley. There is documentation of the killing of three traders residing between the towns which I would assume was the work of scouts (is “perimeter support” the correct term?). The same documentation makes clear that the attack took place under cover of darkness, but am I wrong that in lieu of rainfall the attack would have been audible at that proximity?

    Last edited by ganulv; 11-05-2011 at 06:26 PM.
    If you don’t read the newspaper, you are uninformed; if you do read the newspaper, you are misinformed. – Mark Twain (attributed)

  4. #24
    Council Member slapout9's Avatar
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    Default You Gotta Be Airborne

    To do Raids right link to the history of US Paratroopers and Philippine Guerrillas and successful Raids.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raid_at_Los_Ba%C3%B1os

  5. #25
    Moderator Steve Blair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob's World View Post
    The Commanche were the masters of the raid, covering vast distances at night (thus the American saying "Commanche Moon", for some 50 years settlers feared the full moon with good reason), to strike ruthlessly, round up vast herds of horses, and be back home hundreds of miles away before any pursuit could be organized.

    Thank god AQ is nowhere near as capable or dangerous as these warriors were. Of note, we never said we were a "nation at war" in those days, and most of the fighting was done by civilians and para-military Ranger units. The military had the wrong gear, the wrong doctrine and never understood what they were dealing with. Ultimately the military applied an indirect approach with minor success, but it was the buffalo hunters who forced the Commanche onto the reservation.

    Just a hat tip to some master raiders.
    So were the Piegan/Blackfeet peoples, who raided all the way down to lower Wyoming...often for the sheer excitement of it. The Apache were also very good at that sort of warfare, as were the Navajo before 1864 or so.

    And you're mistaken to some degree about just who fought the Indian Wars, Bob. I won't bore folks with the details, though, but just point out that there were some commanders and units who understood that sort of warfare. Often the irregulars caused more problems than they solved.
    "On the plains and mountains of the American West, the United States Army had once learned everything there was to learn about hit-and-run tactics and guerrilla warfare."
    T.R. Fehrenbach This Kind of War

  6. #26
    Council Member ganulv's Avatar
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    Default Just to give Colonel Church and his Indian allies their due…

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Blair View Post
    And you're mistaken to some degree about just who fought the Indian Wars, Bob. I won't bore folks with the details, though, but just point out that there were some commanders and units who understood that sort of warfare. Often the irregulars caused more problems than they solved.
    I do think Bob’s characterization works for the Anglophone colonies in the 17th century and the early 18th century, though I would hasten to add that native allies should be summed to the parties involved. I won’t bore folks with details, either, but I think there might be an interesting separate thread about the particulars at some point.
    Last edited by ganulv; 11-07-2011 at 11:47 PM. Reason: typo fix
    If you don’t read the newspaper, you are uninformed; if you do read the newspaper, you are misinformed. – Mark Twain (attributed)

  7. #27
    Moderator Steve Blair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ganulv View Post
    I do think Bob’s characterization works for the Anglophone colonies in the 17th century and the early 18th century, though I would hasten to add that native allies should be summed to the parties involved. I won’t bore folks with details, either, but I think there might be an interesting separate thread about the particulars at some point.
    I was basing my comments on his Comanche example, which in terms of US involvement was certainly early to mid 19th century. When you get into that period there are many examples of the involvement of civilians and para-military types actually fanning the hostilities and making things worse than they perhaps needed to be (shades of Blackwater, anyone?).

    You're of course right that we could have an interesting thread or three about this stuff...
    "On the plains and mountains of the American West, the United States Army had once learned everything there was to learn about hit-and-run tactics and guerrilla warfare."
    T.R. Fehrenbach This Kind of War

  8. #28
    Council Member ganulv's Avatar
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    Default The tradition of all dead generations &tc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Blair View Post
    I was basing my comments on his Comanche example, which in terms of US involvement was certainly early to mid 19th century. When you get into that period there are many examples of the involvement of civilians and para-military types actually fanning the hostilities and making things worse than they perhaps needed to be (shades of Blackwater, anyone?).
    In the right hands those examples might serve as the basis for a fine work of fiction
    Last edited by ganulv; 11-08-2011 at 05:39 PM. Reason: formatting
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  9. #29
    Council Member ganulv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMA View Post
    Having been involved in some raid activity myself
    Just curious, but are you aware whether there is an Afrikaans term which translates as ‘raid’? Given the language’s close relationship to German I would be surprised if there were; given the region’s military history I would be surprised if there were not.
    If you don’t read the newspaper, you are uninformed; if you do read the newspaper, you are misinformed. – Mark Twain (attributed)

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    Quote Originally Posted by jcustis View Post
    It would be aerial in nature, but if Israel bombs a Iranian nuke program facility, that would essentially be a raid.
    No, it would I suggest be a strike

    You can qualify that with: air- or missile- or rocket- or nuclear-

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    Quote Originally Posted by ganulv View Post
    Just curious, but are you aware whether there is an Afrikaans term which translates as ‘raid’? Given the language’s close relationship to German I would be surprised if there were; given the region’s military history I would be surprised if there were not.
    It's strooptog in Afrikaans and inval in Dutch. Have heard both used in Afrikaans.

    Actually if I remember correctly English is closer to German and Afrikaans is closer to Dutch/Hollands
    Last edited by JMA; 11-08-2011 at 05:56 PM.

  12. #32
    Council Member Fuchs's Avatar
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    That doesn't matter much.

    You can read half of Dutch texts (enough to understand what it's about and what's the general meaning) once you know German and English.
    The Netherlands are geographically and linguistically half-way in between imo.

    Don't tell a Dutchman, though. Some of them have 'small neighbour issues'.

  13. #33
    Council Member slapout9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMA View Post
    No, it would I suggest be a strike

    You can qualify that with: air- or missile- or rocket- or nuclear-
    I say it would be an "Air Raid" that is the term that was used from WW2 all the way up till the term "strike" became popular in the 1960's.

  14. #34
    Council Member ganulv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken White View Post
    Aside note -- he also made the Cabanatuan Raid.
    A side question about the side note—what did you think about the 2005 film about the Cabanatuan Raid?
    If you don’t read the newspaper, you are uninformed; if you do read the newspaper, you are misinformed. – Mark Twain (attributed)

  15. #35
    Council Member Kiwigrunt's Avatar
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    I think that Dutch also lacks a word that is exactly synonymous to raid, in a military context.


    Goose Green was initially intended (by Thompson) to be a raid, and then became an attack to defeat and occupy.

    'Overval' (and the German uberfall) could be used to describe both, and therein lays its shortcoming. It is too generalised. As mentioned up thread, it does not necessarily entail the egress (or even ingress) bit. So 'overval' would be a sufficient but not necessary condition for ‘raid’.

    'Inval' (in-fall) specifically entails the ingress bit, yet is further removed from entailing the egress bit. Operation Barbarossa was an 'inval'.

    'Strooptocht' (excuse me for using the correct spelling) and 'rooftocht' are not suitable for either of the Goose Green cases. They are more suitable descriptions for the kind of adventures mentioned up thread regarding North American Indian tribes (a 'stroper' is a poacher), and perhaps Viking-style raids. They imply some form of plundering. So again, a strooptocht can be a raid, but not all raids are strooptochten. I also wonder if 'raid' implies some notion of speed or immediacy, more so than a strooptocht.


    Strike versus raid. That's an interesting one. I suppose it saddles us with the same ingress / egress issues. The German V1s and V2s on London would be strikes, whereas the bombers over Germany would be raids by virtue of their necessity to get themselves into the witch's cauldron.
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  16. #36
    Council Member RTK's Avatar
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    Default Here's what doctrine says...

    FM 1-02, Operational Terms and Graphics:

    raid – (DOD, NATO) An operation, usually small scale, involving a swift penetration of hostile territory to secure information, confuse the enemy, or to destroy installations. It ends with a planned withdrawal upon completion of the assigned mission. See FM 3-0.

    FM 3-90, Tactics

    A raid is a form of attack, usually small scale, involving a swift entry into hostile territory to secure information, confuse the enemy, or destroy installations. It ends with a planned withdrawal from the objective area on mission completion (FM 3-0). A raid can also be used to support operations designed to rescue and recover individuals and equipment in danger of capture. (page 5-38)

    FM 3-0, Operations

    A raid is an operation to temporarily seize an area in order to secure information, confuse an adversary, capture personnel or equipment, or to destroy a capability. It ends with a planned withdrawal upon completion of the assigned mission (JP 3-0). Units routinely conduct raids as part of tactical
    operations but sometimes as separate joint operations. The latter is characterized as a limited intervention. (FM 3-90 contains doctrine on tactical-level raids.) (page 2-6)

    JP 3-0, Joint Operations

    Raids are operations to temporarily seize an area, usually through forcible
    entry, in order to secure information, confuse an adversary, capture personnel or equipment, or destroy an objective or capability (e.g., Operation URGENT FURY, Grenada 1983, to protect US citizens and restore the lawful government). Raids end with a planned withdrawal upon completion of the assigned mission. (Page V-27 to V-28)


    AAP-6, NATO Glossary of Terms and Definitions

    An operation, usually small scale, involving a swift penetration of hostile territory to secure information, confuse the enemy, or destroy his installations. It ends with a planned withdrawal upon completion of the assigned mission. (Page 2-R-3)
    Example is better than precept.

  17. #37
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default Haven't seen it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ganulv View Post
    A side question about the side note—what did you think about the 2005 film about the Cabanatuan Raid?
    I'm not a movie fan and I particularly dislike 'war movies.' No matter how hard they try, they can't get it right. The movie genre by its nature has to compress time and thus events and I always get annoyed at the off the wall 'messages' many try to promulgate.

    Did read the book, tho' -- several of them in fact.

  18. #38
    Council Member ganulv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken White View Post
    The movie genre by its nature has to compress time and thus events
    Having worked around a courtroom I pretty much can’t watch procedurals and the time compression thing is at the root of that. Also, having grown up in a household run by a nurse I can’t stand medical dramas. But that’s because I know nurses and docs cry less than almost all non-medical professionals, not more.
    If you don’t read the newspaper, you are uninformed; if you do read the newspaper, you are misinformed. – Mark Twain (attributed)

  19. #39
    Council Member slapout9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RTK View Post
    FM 1-02, Operational Terms and Graphics:

    raid – (DOD, NATO) An operation, usually small scale, involving a swift penetration of hostile territory to secure information, confuse the enemy, or to destroy installations. It ends with a planned withdrawal upon completion of the assigned mission. See FM 3-0.

    FM 3-90, Tactics

    A raid is a form of attack, usually small scale, involving a swift entry into hostile territory to secure information, confuse the enemy, or destroy installations. It ends with a planned withdrawal from the objective area on mission completion (FM 3-0). A raid can also be used to support operations designed to rescue and recover individuals and equipment in danger of capture. (page 5-38)

    FM 3-0, Operations

    A raid is an operation to temporarily seize an area in order to secure information, confuse an adversary, capture personnel or equipment, or to destroy a capability. It ends with a planned withdrawal upon completion of the assigned mission (JP 3-0). Units routinely conduct raids as part of tactical
    operations but sometimes as separate joint operations. The latter is characterized as a limited intervention. (FM 3-90 contains doctrine on tactical-level raids.) (page 2-6)

    JP 3-0, Joint Operations

    Raids are operations to temporarily seize an area, usually through forcible
    entry, in order to secure information, confuse an adversary, capture personnel or equipment, or destroy an objective or capability (e.g., Operation URGENT FURY, Grenada 1983, to protect US citizens and restore the lawful government). Raids end with a planned withdrawal upon completion of the assigned mission. (Page V-27 to V-28)


    AAP-6, NATO Glossary of Terms and Definitions

    An operation, usually small scale, involving a swift penetration of hostile territory to secure information, confuse the enemy, or destroy his installations. It ends with a planned withdrawal upon completion of the assigned mission. (Page 2-R-3)

    Hi RTK,
    Link to US Army Big Picture Series Titled: Strike Command......Looks like Raid planning according to doctrine.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tgh7p...eature=related

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    "raid – (DOD, NATO) An operation, usually small scale, involving a swift penetration of hostile territory to secure information, confuse the enemy, or to destroy installations. It ends with a planned withdrawal upon completion of the assigned mission. See FM 3-0."

    no limits on size. It is a form of special attack.

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