The Clausewitz Collection (merged thread)

[zenpundit]

Wilf Owen wrote:

"People do not take up arms for fun. Violence is instrumental, not recreational"

Instrumental for some. States, for example.

Arguably "recreational violence" is an end in itself and a point of recruitment for certain kinds of military forces from tribal raiders, to mercenaries to citizen soldiers where a public demonstration of martial prowess was integral to social concepts of "honor" or future individual political credibility. From counting coup to ethnic cleansing the neighbors who have marginally different customs, taking up arms throughout history has had other pretexts besides strategic political objectives.

I would also argue that some of history's more poorly conceived military ventures failed in part because they were gratuitous gestures of force lacking in a coherent purpose.

[Ken White]

Instrumental for some. States, for example.

Arguably "recreational violence" is an end in itself and a point of recruitment...taking up arms throughout history has had other pretexts besides strategic political objectives.

True but that does not indicate that such recourse to arms is recreational even though some, a small percentage and generally young and inexperienced may actually enjoy conflict it is unlikely that the majority of groups that take up arms do so for recreation.

I would also argue that some of history's more poorly conceived military ventures failed in part because they were gratuitous gestures of force lacking in a coherent purpose.

Also true but again, not a contradiction of Wilf's point. All Movies lack a coherent purpose IMO yet they are seen by some as recreation and by others as instrumental for achieving social change. Movies are not real and some have entertainment value. War is real, it is singularly lacking in entertainment value...

[William F. Owen]

Arguably "recreational violence" is an end in itself and a point of recruitment for certain kinds of military forces from tribal raiders, to mercenaries to citizen soldiers where a public demonstration of martial prowess was integral to social concepts of "honor" or future individual political credibility.

...and thus instrumental. Instrumental does not mean "fun free" it just means for a purpose.

If you want to talk movies, I'd say there is an object lesson to be had from studying "The Shield" which is exceptional screen writing and where all violent actions have direct story consequences.