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Thread: Chinese Cyber (war)fare (merged thread)

  1. #21
    Council Member AdamG's Avatar
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    "Nevermind" - Emily Littela
    Last edited by AdamG; 02-04-2013 at 07:23 PM. Reason: Reading comprehension skills, recto-cranial inversion
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  2. #22
    Council Member AdamG's Avatar
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    Google Chairman Eric Schmidt uses a new book to call China an Internet menace that backs cyber-crime for economic and political gain, reports say. The New Digital Age - due for release in April - reportedly brands China "the world's most active and enthusiastic filterer of information".
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-21307212
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  3. #23
    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
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    Default Unmasking a Chinese Hacker

    A detective story, not Sherlock Holmes or CSI, that finally talks to the suspect, who works for the, read on:http://mobile.businessweek.com/artic...ntity-unmasked
    davidbfpo

  4. #24
    Council Member carl's Avatar
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    One of the investigators in the article David linked to hopes that if enough investigations that lead back to the Red Chinese government are made public, they will 'fess up and admit what they have been doing. He doesn't know if they will stop but figures it might make it harder.

    Naivete like that isn't going to stop this. Hoods don't care if everybody knows what they do as long as nobody stops them. Public knowledge is taken care of by a sincere outraged denial. Hoods have that down pat.

    I think there is a ruthlessness gap here.
    Last edited by carl; 02-15-2013 at 03:53 PM.
    "We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene

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    Council Member Dayuhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carl View Post
    Naivete like that isn't going to stop this. Hoods don't care if everybody knows what they do as long as nobody stops them.
    Just out of curiosity, how would you propose to stop them?
    “The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary”

    H.L. Mencken

  6. #26
    Council Member bourbon's Avatar
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    Default Our Advanced Persistent Troll

    Quote Originally Posted by Dayuhan View Post
    Just out of curiosity, how would you propose to stop them?
    What would Bill Casey do?
    “[S]omething in his tone now reminded her of his explanations of asymmetric warfare, a topic in which he had a keen and abiding interest. She remembered him telling her how terrorism was almost exclusively about branding, but only slightly less so about the psychology of lotteries…” - Zero History, William Gibson

  7. #27
    Council Member carl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dayuhan View Post
    Just out of curiosity, how would you propose to stop them?
    How do you normally stop hoods?

    (comment containing words such as panic, hysteria, unrealistic, nuance, realistically, subtleties, unwarranted fears etc. is sure to follow.)
    Last edited by carl; 02-16-2013 at 12:51 AM.
    "We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene

  8. #28
    Council Member Dayuhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bourbon View Post
    What would Bill Casey do?
    I don't know, why don't you ask him and tell us what he says?

    Quote Originally Posted by carl View Post
    How do you normally stop hoods?
    If they're doing something illegal, you call the cops and have them stopped. I'm not sure how applicable that is to China's internet activities. Who you gonna call?

    If the hoods are doing something immediately threatening and there are no cops, you could try to stop them yourself, which brings you right back to the original question... how do you propose to stop them?
    “The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary”

    H.L. Mencken

  9. #29
    Council Member bourbon's Avatar
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    Default Listen all y'all, it's a sabotage

    Quote Originally Posted by Dayuhan View Post
    I don't know, why don't you ask him and tell us what he says?
    https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/csi-publications/csi-studies/studies/96unclass/farewell.htm


    http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/02/op...l-dossier.html
    The technology topping the Soviets' wish list was for computer control systems to automate the operation of the new trans-Siberian gas pipeline. When we turned down their overt purchase order, the K.G.B. sent a covert agent into a Canadian company to steal the software; tipped off by Farewell, we added what geeks call a ''Trojan Horse'' to the pirated product.

    ''The pipeline software that was to run the pumps, turbines and valves was programmed to go haywire,'' writes Reed, ''to reset pump speeds and valve settings to produce pressures far beyond those acceptable to the pipeline joints and welds. The result was the most monumental non-nuclear explosion and fire ever seen from space.''
    Last edited by bourbon; 02-18-2013 at 01:50 AM.
    “[S]omething in his tone now reminded her of his explanations of asymmetric warfare, a topic in which he had a keen and abiding interest. She remembered him telling her how terrorism was almost exclusively about branding, but only slightly less so about the psychology of lotteries…” - Zero History, William Gibson

  10. #30
    Council Member carl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dayuhan View Post
    If the hoods are doing something immediately threatening and there are no cops, you could try to stop them yourself,...
    How do you stop them yourself?
    "We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene

  11. #31
    Council Member carl's Avatar
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    Bourbon:

    The CIA doc you linked to was very interesting and contained this passage.

    On 17 January 1983, to define his policy for political, military, and economic relations with the USSR, Reagan approved National Security Decision Directive (NSDD) 75, U. S. Relations with the USSR, a document spelling out purposes, themes, and strategy for competing in the Cold War. It specified three policy elements: containment and reversal of Soviet expansionism, promotion of change in the internal system to reduce the power of the ruling elite, and engagement in negotiations and agreements that would enhance US interests.
    That strategy seems as if it would be a very appropriate one to apply toward Red China today. Hell, reducing the power of the ruling elite would be downright humanitarian.
    Last edited by davidbfpo; 02-18-2013 at 07:32 AM. Reason: cite in quotes
    "We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene

  12. #32
    Council Member Dayuhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carl View Post
    How do you stop them yourself?
    That's the question I asked you. It seemed relevant, since you were the one discussing stopping them.

    For me it would depend entirely on what you want them to stop doing, how badly you want them to stop doing it, and how willing you are to deal with the probable consequences of whatever means are proposed to get them to stop doing it.

    Quote Originally Posted by carl View Post
    The CIA doc you linked to was very interesting and contained this passage.

    "On 17 January 1983, to define his policy for political, military, and economic relations with the USSR, Reagan approved National Security Decision Directive (NSDD) 75, U. S. Relations with the USSR, a document spelling out purposes, themes, and strategy for competing in the Cold War. It specified three policy elements: containment and reversal of Soviet expansionism, promotion of change in the internal system to reduce the power of the ruling elite, and engagement in negotiations and agreements that would enhance US interests."

    That strategy seems as if it would be a very appropriate one to apply toward Red China today. Hell, reducing the power of the ruling elite would be downright humanitarian.
    Again these are very generic prescriptions, and the question would be what exactly could or should be done to advance these prescriptions. It might also be pointed out that some of what was done to contain and reverse Soviet expansionism didn't exactly work out for us, notably sustaining various dictators who claimed to be anti-communist and supporting various insurgents who turned out to be not so much anti-communist as anti-everybody. Any such set of broad goals stands or falls on the specific steps chosen to advance the goals.

    Of course the Chinese cyber-espionage project is well known, and we can assume that all of the standard responses are in progress, from analyzing their espionage priorities to determine their perceived weaknesses to trying to set them up to steal things that will backfire on hem. Of course the Chinese also know these moves are in progress and will be taking their own steps to counter them. That's the nature of the game.

    As for the aforementioned "water army", described this way:

    paid posters are known as the Internet Water Army because they are ready and willing to 'flood' the internet for whoever is willing to pay. The flood can consist of comments, gossip and information (or disinformation)
    it would appear to indicate, in simple terms, an unlimited capacity for generating spam. How large a threat this entails remains unclear.

    As suggested on another thread, it is useful to determine what specifically we fear.
    “The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary”

    H.L. Mencken

  13. #33
    Council Member bourbon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dayuhan View Post
    Of course the Chinese also know these moves are in progress and will be taking their own steps to counter them. That's the nature of the game.
    You see thats the beauty of it; they’ll never what we’ve monkey-wrenched and what we haven’t! They’ll have billions of lines of code to pore over if they want to prevent mass industrial disaster.

    Tell your Guoanbu pals that I will rejoice their tears, ####bird.
    “[S]omething in his tone now reminded her of his explanations of asymmetric warfare, a topic in which he had a keen and abiding interest. She remembered him telling her how terrorism was almost exclusively about branding, but only slightly less so about the psychology of lotteries…” - Zero History, William Gibson

  14. #34
    Council Member carl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dayuhan View Post
    . For me it would depend entirely on what you want them to stop doing, how badly you want them to stop doing it, and how willing you are to deal with the probable consequences of whatever means are proposed to get them to stop doing it.
    A try perhaps, but please answer the question. How would you stop a hood yourself?
    "We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene

  15. #35
    Council Member Dayuhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bourbon View Post
    You see thats the beauty of it; they’ll never what we’ve monkey-wrenched and what we haven’t! They’ll have billions of lines of code to pore over if they want to prevent mass industrial disaster.
    I'm sure that's assumed, and has been from the start.

    Quote Originally Posted by carl View Post
    A try perhaps, but please answer the question. How would you stop a hood yourself?
    Depends on what he's doing, to whom he's doing it, how badly I want him to stop, etc.

    Obviously.

    There's an enormous range of possible response, from "none necessary" up to "maximum violence", and a whole lot in between. Different circumstances call for different responses.

    Obviously.

    Again, I'm not the one who brought up "hoods", nor am I the one who proposed stopping anyone from doing anything, so I'm not sure why the question's being asked.
    “The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary”

    H.L. Mencken

  16. #36
    Council Member carl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dayuhan View Post
    Depends on what he's doing, to whom he's doing it, how badly I want him to stop, etc.

    Obviously.

    There's an enormous range of possible response, from "none necessary" up to "maximum violence", and a whole lot in between. Different circumstances call for different responses.

    Obviously.

    Again, I'm not the one who brought up "hoods", nor am I the one who proposed stopping anyone from doing anything, so I'm not sure why the question's being asked.
    Again please, answer the question. What would you do if you had to stop a hood yourself? How would you stop him? I am getting to the relevance but you have to answer the question. What do you do to stop the hood yourself? Think broadly.
    "We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene

  17. #37
    Council Member Dayuhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carl View Post
    Again please, answer the question. What would you do if you had to stop a hood yourself? How would you stop him? I am getting to the relevance but you have to answer the question. What do you do to stop the hood yourself? Think broadly.
    The question is too generic to have a relevant answer. You obviously want to elicit something and I don't have a clue what it is, so why don't you just tell us and proceed from there.

    The discussion is of China, not of generic "hoods" (I'm not even sure how you define that), so why not bypass the digression and tell us how, if at all, you propose to persuade or compel the Chinese to stop doing the things you would like to see them stop doing. I'm not personally convinced that we can stop them, or that we need to.

    PS [edit]: this:

    I'm not personally convinced that we can stop them, or that we need to.
    was not particularly clear, and was meant to apply to the status quo, the existing level of objectionable behavior.
    Last edited by Dayuhan; 02-19-2013 at 12:05 AM.
    “The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary”

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  18. #38
    Council Member carl's Avatar
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    Dayuhan:

    You don't want to answer. Fine. Hard to discuss things that way though.
    "We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene

  19. #39
    Council Member Dayuhan's Avatar
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    I can't answer. The question as asked is unanswerable. It also has no visible relevance to the matter under discussion, so why bother?
    “The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary”

    H.L. Mencken

  20. #40
    Council Member AdamG's Avatar
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    Cyber attacks on dozens of American companies appear to have originated in an area of Shanghai that houses a Chinese military unit. That's according to a report out Tuesday from a U.S. cybersecurity company which says the group behind the attacks is the most prolific it's ever followed.
    http://www.npr.org/2013/02/19/172373...hinas-military


    A US company has accused a Chinese military intelligence unit in Shanghai of conducting a huge cyber espionage campaign against western companies, in the most specific allegations that the People’s Liberation Army sponsors hacking.

    Mandiant, a Washington-based cyber security group, said APT1 – a group of hackers it observed attacking at least 141 companies in the US and 15 other countries over the past seven years – was in fact a PLA group called Unit 61398.
    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/6b057948-7...#axzz2LLq8he7A

    Actual report
    http://intelreport.mandiant.com/Mand...PT1_Report.pdf
    A scrimmage in a Border Station
    A canter down some dark defile
    Two thousand pounds of education
    Drops to a ten-rupee jezail


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