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Thread: Kenya (catch all)

  1. #101
    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
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    Default Exceptionally attention-seeking urban guerrilla

    Quote Originally Posted by Fuchs View Post
    Did anyone else think "exceptionally attention-seeking urban guerrilla" when he read about the mall attack?
    Yes, we invariably forget terrorism is a tactic which is armed propaganda.

    I increasingly feel that much of the propaganda is aimed within the group, to maintain itself and to the tiny fraction who might just join them. Plus those who for a variety of reasons, including making a profit, provide support.

    What is strange, maybe that is how Kenya works, is how such a symbolic target was ill prepared and the response appears to be so chaotic. It will be interesting to see how many attackers bodies are found and then matched to the video footage. Why? Because identification aside, how many escaped?
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    This might help clarify the role sadism plays in Islamist attacks: http://frontpagemag.com/2013/dawn-pe...n-at-the-mall/ The author of the piece pursues scholarship in psychology, symbols, and ritual violence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by commart View Post
    This might help clarify the role sadism plays in Islamist attacks: http://frontpagemag.com/2013/dawn-pe...n-at-the-mall/ The author of the piece pursues scholarship in psychology, symbols, and ritual violence.
    Is this a surprise to anyone? If so where have you been?

    This sub-human behaviour is not purely carried out by Jihadists. Certainly across Africa mutilation and torture prior to killing the norm - time permitting.

    I am rapidly getting to the point where I believe that western governments are deliberately keeping the general public uninformed on such matters in the misguided belief that it could cause a blacklash against so-called 'innocent' Muslims if the public knew.
    Last edited by JMA; 10-06-2013 at 06:33 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JMA View Post
    Is this a surprise to anyone? If so where have you been?

    This sub-human behaviour is not purely carried out by Jihadists. Certainly across Africa mutilation and torture prior to killing the norm - time permitting.

    I am rapidly getting to the point where I believe that western governments are deliberately keeping the general public uninformed on such matters in the misguided belief that it could cause a blacklash against so-called 'innocent' Muslims if the public knew.
    I suspect there is some truth to your claim about Western governments keeping their constituents in the dark, but the media is free to report on this, so I think the reality is that Western media is extremely liberal and these acts don't fit their preferred narrative that these are some form of freedom fighters battling the oppressive West.

    The U.S. government has considerable means to tell the unpleasant truth, but for reasons that are not clear they choose not to.

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    Default Telling the Truth to the Public

    In terms of US politicians, the 10 most prominent reasons for not being frank with the public on this issue are:

    1. I have to say this (or not say that) to stay in office.
    2. I have to say this (or not say that) to stay in office.
    3. I have to say this (or not say that) to stay in office.
    4. I have to say this (or not say that) to stay in office.
    5. I have to say this (or not say that) to stay in office.
    6. [Other Reason - Viewer's Option]
    7. [Other Reason - Viewer's Option]
    8. [Other Reason - Viewer's Option]
    9. [Other Reason - Viewer's Option]
    10. We have to protect American Muslims

    More seriously, American politicians perceive that Americans have a zero risk tolerence for attacks here; Americans do not want to be reminded that there are man-eating human beings roaming this world; and that even minor attacks generate wide-spread panic states in Americans well beyond the actual effect of the attacks. The politicians may be accurate in their perception of the voters who elect and re-elect them.

    My views on killing "bad guys" are well-known and set out in this thread, The Rules - Engaging HVTs & OBL, and elsewhere at SWC.

    From the OP:

    Comments on the practical military aspects of all this are welcome. Of course, if you think all of this Laws of War stuff is Bravo Sierra, you're welcome to say that.

    The more I think about this event [killing OBL] - and the lesser cases of PIDs entering buildings "somewhere", I think of my dad saying not to send a patrol when you can send some 105s. My question is, if you have positive ID and know you will get the target by some kind of "fire mission", why not just eradicate the target if you want the target dead ?
    To me, "bad guys" are still human. The savage traits (laid out in Dawn Perlmutter's Frontpage piece) have been well accepted in some otherwise very human societies of the 20th, 19th, 18th, 17th, 16th, 15th ... centuries. In short, we (human beings) have some very savage traits. They were survival effective (or at least not survival detrimental) in the "modern human" of 10,000 bce, or 250,000 bce, if you want to carry modern HSS that far back. So, it would be surprising if those savage traits did not appear in the 21st century among a "band of brothers" - a closed grouping in terms of ideology, whose most extreme features reinforce themselves into a very "we-they" psychology.

    To paraphrase (as to the extreme ends of the "bands of brothers" spectrum): They were the best of men; they were the worst of men.

    On to my views on some specific "gems" of mine - buried in much longer pieces - which I still believe.

    On Beheadings

    5-21-2009

    Both the beheadings and hostage use (if evidenced - not always that easy) are war crimes. They are also typical of the AQ-Taliban way of war - they have their own LOAC (Law of Armed Conflict). You can verify that via many sources on and off line. For a quick overview, see at SWJ, The Erosion of Noncombatant Immunity within Al Qaeda [2008].
    ...
    The media and many Americans are simply incapable of seeing AQ-Taliban for what they are - as determined by what they do. Those folks should assemble a group of beheadings videos - usually done according to the law and process adopted by AQ-Taliban - and watch them while dwelling on what they are watching.
    10-12-2010

    How should one class the beheading videos (having watched a few) in terms of reciprocity and the reasons for them ? I expect that is very much in the eyes of the beholder. In my own eyes, comparing them to what the Gurk did (based on our limited facts) suggests that he was guilty of a breach of etiquette.

    and 10-25-2010

    First, the facts, as stated from article:

    His unit had been told that they were seeking a ‘high value target,’ a Taliban commander, and that they must prove they had killed the right man. The Gurkhas had intended to remove the Taliban leader’s body from the battlefield for identification purposes. But they came under heavy fire as their tried to do so. Military sources said that in the heat of battle, the Gurkha took out his curved kukri knife and beheaded the dead insurgent. He is understood to have removed the man’s head from the area, leaving the rest of his body on the battlefield.
    Second, looking at these first facts from a Laws of War standpoint, the more appropriate COA (removal of the entire body from the field) was foreclosed by enemy fires. The Gurk, utilizing judgment in terms of the military necessity to ID the HVT, took an alternative COA to achieve that goal and complete his mission. [JMM !!]
    On Not Being Terrorized

    3-28-2009

    Terror is an Effect

    Terror, like its cousin Shock & Awe (and other "EBOs"), is subjective, based on the psychological reaction of the targeted population (an effect) to the violent event (the means). As such, it is essentially useless in classifying the means or the actor, either for legal or military purposes. One must concede that consideration of terror is important to the targeted population because, if a substantial segment of that population is terrorized, it will lose its resolve to resist and will be inclined to submit to the will of the attacker. Thus, the best tool to fight "terrorism" (or any other "EBO") is a targeted population that refuses to be terrorized, shocked or awed by the violent means used by the attacker.
    9-12-2011

    As to mindset, a starting point (and the ultimate defense against terrorism as a tactic) would be the civilian population's refusal to be terrorized. Soldiers accept risks in the field; civilians should also accept risks in this kind of conflict (the risks not being anywhere close to existential with respect to the civilian population as a group).
    The Sermonette

    9-16-2009

    This is my personal take, which I've had since 9/11.

    1. We must expect attempts at violence in the US by AQ, either directly, via supported groups or by persons who are simply thinking in parallel with AQ.

    2. So far, the violent incidents have been few (e.g., the DC snipers & the Arkansas shootings by "parallel thinkers"); and a number of plots have been foiled.

    3. We cannot expect this successful record to continue without a serious incident happening. It will occur. Homeland security will not be perfect.

    4. How people react will depend on the person. If you were terrorized by 9/11, you probably will be terrorized by the event which will surely happen. If you were intensely angered by 9/11 without feeling terrorized, the same emotion will probably flow from that event.

    5. I (and every US citizen, for that matter - some will disagree with this), since 9/11, have sent hundreds of thousands of guys and gals into situations where they don't have our at home luxuries and are subject to far greater risks than we have at home. So, it is time for the homeland to grow up about risks of violence.

    6. I don't suggest we adopt the mentality of a herd of prey stalked by predators. But, I do suggest that, besides the logical COA to arrest or kill when we can, we realize that AQ (as it presently stands) is not an existential threat to the US. It is simply a threat.

    End sermonette.
    Regards

    Mike
    Last edited by jmm99; 10-06-2013 at 10:22 PM.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmm99 View Post
    More seriously, American politicians perceive that Americans have a zero risk tolerence for attacks here; Americans do not want to be reminded that there are man-eating human beings roaming this world; and that even minor attacks generate wide-spread panic states in Americans well beyond the actual effect of the attacks. The politicians may be accurate in their perception of the voters who elect and re-elect them.
    Mike:

    This is accurate if you limit it to perceptions of politicians and to the sensibilities of superzips (Charles Murray's superzips), specifically the liberal establishment mass media elites (thank you Mike Rosen). I don't think it applies to the flyover people that make up the Americans.

    Us flyover people pretty much know or strongly suspect there are beasts out there, having worked with them here, been robbed or beaten up by them here or chased them down and seen their work over there. The passengers in the back of the airplane so to speak, are combat vets, EMTs, rocket scientists, historians, DAs, cops, docs and many are parents. The Americans can take whatever is thrown at them, but they have to be leveled with.

    The superzips on the other hand, live lives so insulated from the hard edge of existence they don't really believe it exists and don't want to be reminded of it. It is my opinion that it isn't the Americans that have a zero tolerance for attacks or casualties, we don't. We take whatever comes and go on. But the superzips can't, and because they can't they figure the rest of us can't and act accordingly. The politicians, many of the old line (from both parties) ones anyway are an integral part of superzipistan. The other zips are their peers and their true constituents. They play to them and so we get what we get.

    I don't and haven't thought there is anything wrong with us, the Americans. There is something horribly wrong with our leadership class and how we select them.

    I like the sermonette and think that if you asked, most of us flyover people would agree. The zips won't though.
    Last edited by carl; 10-06-2013 at 10:45 PM.
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    Default Carl:

    Yup, we SuperUnZips (and, yes, remember I made you an honorary Yooper ) have a different take from most in the Beltway. So, note my artful phrasing :

    The politicians may be accurate in their perception of the voters who elect and re-elect them.
    We then have to ask: who elects these folks ? I would like to agree with you on this being fact:

    This is accurate if you limit it to perceptions of politicians and to the sensibilities of superzips (Charles Murray's superzips), specifically the liberal establishment mass media elites (thank you Mike Rosen).
    But, the fact remains that the SuperZips and Political Elites are not sufficient to swing national elections. They are necessary, but not sufficient to elect and re-elect the politicians of the Beltway.

    While "flyover country" has a plethora of good people - and I live in something of a blessed nature preserve, the fact has been that many "flyover people" have elected and re-elected those schmucks that each of us (in his own way) have been decrying for decades.

    While it may be comforting to believe that there is a "silent majority" out there - completely opposed to the SuperZips; that "silent majority" (if it does exist) is simply not showing itself in the election returns.

    Regards

    Mike

    PS: The reasons for making Carl an honorary Yooper is that he used to fly into our weather-forsaken airports; and used to go out with a gal from IIRC Suomi College (now Finlandia University). The last took real courage.
    Last edited by jmm99; 10-07-2013 at 01:10 AM.

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    Council Member M-A Lagrange's Avatar
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    Target Of U.S. Raid In Somalia Called A Top Attack Planner

    A Kenyan intelligence official of Somali origin says that the "high-value terrorist leader" whose residence was targeted in Saturday was the senior al-Shabab leader Abdikadir Mohamed Abdikadir, alias Ikrima.

    Ikrima is a Kenyan of Somali descent who boasts connections to both al-Shabab in Somalia and to a Kenyan jihadist group called al-Hijra. Kenyan authorities announced on Friday that two of the four terrorists killed in the were al-Hijra militants.

    [...]
    A leaked Kenyan intelligence report confirms that Ikrima was plotting "multiple attacks" inside Kenya, "sanctioned by al-Qaida" in Pakistan, and "involving financial and logistical support from South African operatives." The report continues:

    "By December 2011, the planners had acquired safe houses in Nairobi & Mombasa, trained the executors, received explosives from Somalia and commenced assembly of and concealment of explosives."
    According to the report, Ikrima's small "terror cell" included two British nationals: an explosives expert named Jermaine John Grant and the infamous White Widow, Samantha Lewthwaite. (Kenyan President Uhuru Kenyatta had confirmed that a "British woman" may have been among the fighters in Westgate Mall.)
    http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/...aid-in-somalia

    Main target seems accurate. For the rest, usual caution with intelligence leaks are to be observed.

  9. #109
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    Default Mutilation @ Westgate? Not in Mumbai!

    Quote Originally Posted by commart View Post
    This might help clarify the role sadism plays in Islamist attacks: http://frontpagemag.com/2013/dawn-pe...n-at-the-mall/ The author of the piece pursues scholarship in psychology, symbols, and ritual violence.
    I am not an expert, let alone well read on the presence of sadism in Jihadist violence, but this passage simply did not sound truthful:
    The Westgate Mall massacre is comparable to the mass murder of 166 people by members of the Islamist Jihadist group Lashkar-e-Taiba, in ten coordinated shooting and bombing attacks across Mumbai, India on November 26 -29, 2008. During their siege operation the LeT Jihadists also took the time to sexually humiliate, torture and mutilate some of the victims before shooting them dead.
    So I contacted an Indian friend, a Mumbai resident, who officially investigated the attacks and is "in the know". He responded:
    There was no "ritualistic" killing, no "beheading" and no rape in Mumbai. The gory details carried on this web site did not happen here. They did not carry any knives. They did not even mutilate the Jews in Chabad House". All they did was to open fire indiscriminately on innocent civilians.

    Several of the victims in Nairobi were from India or of Indian origin. Had there been any mutilation or slaughter of children, Indian press would have published.
    The Indian police charge sheet, which details what property was recovered and no such weapons are shown (I have a copy).

    I do not doubt mutilation has happened, for example in London, but the author is wrong about Mumbai and I suspect such violence did not occur in Nairobi.
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    Default Who attacked Westgate Mall?

    Clint Watts asks 'Was Kenya Westgate Attack More AQAP/AQ Central Than Shabaab?'. Link: http://selectedwisdom.com/?p=1164
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    About the Gurkha beheading: this is one of the big reasons why so many prominent targets were beheaded in the good old days. In a world without photographs, taking the head to someone who knew him was the surest way of confirming that the deed had indeed been done. When Yazid's Ummayad forces killed Hussain at Karbala (now remembered as the central event in Shia historical memory), they beheaded a person who was, after all, the beloved grandson of the holy prophet of Islam. This was not just (or even mainly) an expression of their barbaric nature. It was the norm to cut off the head of the rebel and take it to the emperor for inspection, confirmation and reward.
    When Aurangzeb overthrew his dad and killed his brothers to become the Mughal emperor of India, one brother (Shuja) escaped to Myanmar. He was apparently killed in a skirmish there, but no one brought back a head (to the Raja of Arakan, whose people killed him; or to Aurangzeb, who was not directly involved in that skirmish). As a result, rumors of his return unsettled Aurangzeb's officials for years. ..Much better for the imperial government if that head had been cut off and brought for display.

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    About ritual mutilation in Mumbai; I dont recall any such event either. The attack itself was barbaric enough (shooting unarmed innocent people while casually walking through the railway station..those images are more shocking to me than ritual mutilation). I wish psyops geniuses did not feel the need to add these details. I have never really understood why the truth (in this case, the willingness of some groups to randomly kill completely innocent unrelated people for the sake of their "cause") is not enough.
    Then again, maybe I am just too naive.

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    Default From Satanic Symbolic to Islamist Symbolic Killings

    Ms Permutter, of Symbol & Ritual Intelligence (apparently its only key figure), formerly "The Institute for the Research of Organized & Ritual Violence", founded in 2001 -

    Symbol & Ritual Intelligence specializes in the research, analysis and investigation of symbolic and ritual violence. Specific areas of expertise include; unfamiliar cultural traditions, ritual activities, religious terrorism, desecration controversies, ritual murder, and the identification of symbols, artifacts and unusual practices. What distinguishes Symbol & Ritual Intelligence from other institutes is our concentrated study of images and the application of symbolic methodologies for use in law enforcement. We can assist you in identifying emblems, tattoos, colors, graffiti, clothing, ritual objects, etc. of hundreds of gang and terrorist organizations. We produce specialized charts, intelligence reports, and group bulletins from our unique perspective.
    branched off from philosophy (in which, she has a PhD) into satanic and occult ritual crimes (big back in the 80s and 90s), and after 9/11 into Islamist ritual crimes.

    As to these subjects, she wrote Investigating Religious Terrorism and Ritualistic Crimes (2003):

    •Presents over 100 illustrations of signs and symbols to look for at crime scenes that indicate ritual practice
    •Includes background and investigation techniques for crimes involving religion-based terrorism
    •Details domestic and international terrorist religions
    •Provides organizational structures of large clans and covens, membership and recruitment policies, and homicide case studies
    •Offers intelligence strategies inclusive of indoctrination techniques, negotiation and prosecution strategies, and advantages of understanding religious violence
    •Examines types of criminal profiling and provides a crime classification system to distinguish between types of ritual homicide
    and True Believers: A Symbolic Anthropological Study of Islamist Culture (tbp 2014):

    •Includes detailed descriptions of the use and origins of Islamist loaded words, embedded symbols, and collective rituals used in indoctrination and psychological warfare
    •Demonstrates how honor and shame is utilized to inculcate children, recruit moderates, train soldiers, and motivate violence
    •Includes descriptions of specific rituals and burial rites related to martyrdom operations that can assist in preventing suicide attacks and the investigation of previous attacks
    •Explores the use of overt and subliminal messages in Islamist communications, cartoons, advertising, music, and videogames
    •Provides a detailed symbolic analysis of honor killing, beheadings, suicide attacks, dismemberment, and other Islamist atrocities.
    •Explains the disproportionate violent responses to Quran desecration and how Islamists exploit these and other incidents
    •Explores the difference and significance of tribal and rational societies
    •Demonstrates the impact of Islamist conspiracy theories for indoctrination, recruitment, and propaganda
    •Illustrates the significance of Muslim victimhood for Islamist strategic and psychological operations
    •Features full color photos
    I haven't read either book; nor do I intend to. I have read her 2006 article, Mujahideen Blood Rituals: The Religious and Forensic Symbolism of Al Qaeda Beheading (obviously the title rings my feeding time bell), which concludes (in snips):

    It is difficult to remain in denial when there is actual proof of ritual murders and not just remnants of the crime scene. The American public is all too familiar with images of violent murder. What the public cannot accept is the fact that these beheadings are communally sanctioned and religiously justified. These are not violent crimes committed by psychopaths or a form of group hysteria; beheading, suicide bombing, and ritual mutilation are the sacred blood rituals of the Holy warriors of Islam. This is a highly organized community that consistently and proudly professes their ideology, values, and goals and persistently identifies themselves as Mujahideen. They do not hide the fact that they are fighting a holy war and that they have a religious imperative to kill Christians, Jews, and unbelievers. All we have to do is listen to what they are telling us.
    ...
    The media is fond of using the word "desecration," particularly in reference to Islamic beliefs. Desecration is a sacred concept, and although we are supposedly not fighting a holy war, the word "desecration" has made headlines quite frequently; desecration of the Quran, desecration of enemies’ bodies, and desecration of mosques. We are hypersensitive to what Muslims hold sacred even when it jeopardizes our national security and puts soldiers’ lives at risk. We are not going to be defeated by terrorism but we will be defeated by political correctness unless we stop sugarcoating the sacred nature of this war. There are many people who recognize the implications of this religious threat; however, not one politician will acknowledge that we are involved in a holy war. It would be political suicide to announce that this is not a war on terrorism but a war on Islam.
    ...
    True believers are the most dangerous enemies. You may be able to get a soldier to fight and die for his country in battle, but you would be hard pressed to find one willing to strap on C-4 attached to a vest full of nails and ball bearings and commit suicide as a walking claymore mine. Mujahideen are lining up for this duty. These holy warriors are willingly blowing themselves up because they have faith. As a consequence of our Western view of the world and standard behavioral science analysis of crime, we fail to see the nature of these true believers. Al-Qaeda has already won the most important strategic battle; they know their enemy, but we are in denial of their religious imperative to annihilate us. Our worst opponent is not the Mujahideen, it is our refusal to acknowledge that we are fighting soldiers of God in a centuries-old holy war.
    Nothing in these snips is that much different from what I've said; but I worry about Ms Perlmutter's facts. That is, is she taking (esp. as in the current Frontpage article) killings by Muslims - not part of a jihadist organization - and using them to amplify the acknowledged killings by jihadist organizations ? And, is she amplifying the Mumbai killings (and perhaps other events she cites) by adding non-facts ?

    Personally, if I were to hire someone to advise me on jihadist killings, I'd hire someone like Scott Atran from the Univ. of Michigan (includes his scientific and popular pubs), who's played that game at the major league level, with such as Marc Sageman, etc., Theoretical Frames on Pathways to Violent Radicalization (2009).

    Regards

    Mike
    Last edited by jmm99; 10-07-2013 at 04:59 PM.

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    btw, re my comments above, I did not mean to deny that Jihadists indulge in horrific ritualized violence (like beheadings and displaying the heads on white sheets), see (if you wish, I did not actually see the video, but have seen others like it in the past) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ApPc...ctr=1381167244
    But I just think it should not be necessary to make up stories if they did not happen.
    What is happening and has happened is bad enough.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jmm99 View Post
    Yup, we SuperUnZips (and, yes, remember I made you an honorary Yooper ) have a different take from most in the Beltway. So, note my artful phrasing :
    Mike:

    I did note your artful phrasing but plunged on regardless. The temptation to mount my soapbox was irresistible.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmm99 View Post
    But, the fact remains that the SuperZips and Political Elites are not sufficient to swing national elections. They are necessary, but not sufficient to elect and re-elect the politicians of the Beltway.

    While "flyover country" has a plethora of good people - and I live in something of a blessed nature preserve, the fact has been that many "flyover people" have elected and re-elected those schmucks that each of us (in his own way) have been decrying for decades.

    While it may be comforting to believe that there is a "silent majority" out there - completely opposed to the SuperZips; that "silent majority" (if it does exist) is simply not showing itself in the election returns.

    Regards

    Mike
    All true. There may not be a wise silent majority anymore. An unspoken tactic of the zips is to make an alliance with the takers of the country in order increase and retain their power. That is most often seen in big cities. But there may be more hope than we think. I believe there are still a number of people who could be takers who refuse to because of personal values, Cinderella men and women. And it takes time for people to take action after they have woken up. There is quite a transition going on in the GOP right now that may be a manifestation of that. The states are always the places where the real political action is in the US and a lot that is hopeful is happening in the states. We'll see I guess.

    I have an honorary Yooper card that I got from another friend. I am very proud to have had that honor conferred upon me by two real Yoopers. (The card does say that I'm not allowed to move there though.)
    "We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene

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    Quote Originally Posted by omarali50 View Post
    About ritual mutilation in Mumbai; I dont recall any such event either. The attack itself was barbaric enough (shooting unarmed innocent people while casually walking through the railway station..those images are more shocking to me than ritual mutilation). I wish psyops geniuses did not feel the need to add these details. I have never really understood why the truth (in this case, the willingness of some groups to randomly kill completely innocent unrelated people for the sake of their "cause") is not enough.
    Then again, maybe I am just too naive.
    I don't think that professional PsyOps strategy is behind this.

    The last decade shone some light at some prevalent depth of human nature.
    Many people are mixing racism, authoritarianism, timidity, their desire to be knowledgeable (while being too stupid and/or lazy to actually acquire knowledge, thus they make #### up and insist others are clueless for they disagree), some despicable fantasies and other dirt from the bottom together.
    The outcome is a flood of such made-up nonsense.

    I suppose this is not new; 9/11 merely added a new fashion to the phenomenon.


    The more I look at the world, the more I become convinced that time is overdue for a pile of good books about cognitive psychology on my desk.

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    Two interesting articles on the Westgate and the SEAL raids.

    First one is on the “white widow”. It is now almost certain she did not participate and the media frenzy around her involvement has been prompted by a lack of info and, as usual, the need for a scoop!
    White Widow merely person of interest in Nairobi mall probe
    AS FAR as the security officials in Kenya are concerned, Samantha Lewthwaite, the Northern Irish woman popularly tied to the Somali extremist group al-Shabaab, is merely a person of interest and not wanted for September’s mall siege in Nairobi that left dozens dead and many more injured. Having been first linked to the attacks by the British media, the link became so compelling that it was carried around the world as fact.
    The Sunday Independent got the correct Lewthwaite angle: we should be worried about what the news of her fake South African passport will do to this country’s bid to reassure the world at large that its passport-issuing system is reliable.

    Home Affairs Minister Naledi Pandor has assured the nation that the department had a handle on the situation as far back as 2011, when it cancelled the fraudulent passport.

    "It was reported that Lewthwaite bought passports for her and her two children in Durban from convicted fraudster Ehmed Chisty for R60,000. The Sunday Independent was reliably informed that home affairs has been searching for three men who have been running ID schemes across the city similar to Chisty’s, raking in between R50,000 and R120,000 for each ID," the paper reported.
    http://www.bdlive.co.za/opinion/colu...obi-mall-probe

    And a very detailed inside of the SEAL raid:
    Somalia SEAL Raid Ended by Children Used as Shields
    In a corroborating report, NBC News described how SEALs were able to enter the al-Shabaab compound, take the positions required by their planning, and even watch one of the terrorists take a cigarette break. But that same al-Shabaab fighter may have spotted the SEALs, because he came back out with an AK-47 and fired on the SEALs. The mission quickly escalated into a firefight, with the SEALs encountering intense fire with both guns and grenades. An unidentified official told CNN that, “Once it became clear we were not going to able to take him, the Navy commander made the decision to withdraw.”

    CNN and NBC had both received word from U.S. officials that the decision to end the Somalia raid was prompted by seeing children, used as human shields, being moved out of the fortified seaside stronghold the SEALs were attacking.

    SEALs were actually able to see Ikrima through the compound’s windows, but when children came into their scopes, the threat of hurting them prompted the team’s withdrawal. The tactical situation for these members of SEAL Team Six, the same unit that killed Osama bin-Laden, was also disintegrating, and they evacuated via the beach.
    http://guardianlv.com/2013/10/somali...ed-as-shields/

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidbfpo View Post
    I am not an expert, let alone well read on the presence of sadism in Jihadist violence, but this passage simply did not sound truthful:

    So I contacted an Indian friend, a Mumbai resident, who officially investigated the attacks and is "in the know". He responded:

    The Indian police charge sheet, which details what property was recovered and no such weapons are shown (I have a copy).

    I do not doubt mutilation has happened, for example in London, but the author is wrong about Mumbai and I suspect such violence did not occur in Nairobi.
    David,

    Unfortunately based on personal observation of several bodies in Iraq and a few elsewhere that were mutilated by Jihadists that indicates to me at least some, and I suspect a minority, do engage in mutilation for whatever purpose. Shifting to your comments on Mumbai, a lot of people from several nations investigated the attacks in Mumbai, so pardon me for being suspect of your friends apparent all knowing assumptions. He may very well be correct, but the jury is still out in my opinion. The latest I read on the Jewish victims, which were the only victims in Mumbai that were possibly tortured was their bodies were too badly mutilated to tell. I saw photos and it appears their bodies were mutilated by explosives. If I recall correctly, hard to believe the attacks were 5 years ago now, the reason the torture was suspected was based on the directions the terrorists were received from Karachi that was intercepted. Even if they did cut their throats, that isn't exactly torture in my view, it is just murder, but getting back to your friends comments none of the terrorists died at that site, so not having knives on them is hardly justification to rule out they didn't use a knife (perhaps for the Indian version of Sherlock Holmes that suffices as evidence of innocence). For example, a group of thieves could break into my house and tie me up, and then grab a knife from my kitchen or elsewhere and slice my throat, and then leave the knife at my house and continue on their killing rampage. I doubt any western investigator would rule they couldn't have cut my throat because they didn't have a knife on them when they were killed or captured. I'm simply throwing out a counter argument to reinforce what Fuchs pointed out, which is that the truth is elusive, which leads to ignorance.

    The information coming out of Nairobi is still terribly confusing, the only thing that remains clear is that several innocents were murdered by terrorists, and possibly several more were killed by the so called security forces. The number of attackers according to open source reports ranges from four (apparently all that was seen in the videos) to 15 to as high as 30! It has been several days since the attack and the reporting is still mixed. Sometimes what passes for the truth doesn't emerge until years after the event.

    After reading the Selected Wisdom post it seemed to be a lot of uninformed rambling about nothing. Al Shabaab has been a multinational terrorist network for years, and they also have been an insurgency force (even longer). Contrary to all the reports of Al-Shabaab being on their last leg, they remain one of the more dangerous Al-Qaeda affiliated terrorist networks (even if their insurgency efforts were rolled back). We struggle too much to try to fit loose networked organizations into our desired view of organizations with a formal structure, and this results in a continued misdiagnosis or classification. We think we know how to defeat formal organizations, but loose networks are much harder to understand since they constantly adapt and are also very resilient. We seem to want to claim victory prematurely simply because African Union forces pushed Al-Shabaab out of the major urban areas in Somalia, yet they still exist and they still have the will and capability to fight, so making claims like they're on their last leg only sets us for disappointment when we find they're far from it. Instead of making such wishful comments, we should pursue the momentum the AU created and continue to aggressively target them until they're sufficiently suppressed. Furthermore, there is no reason to think they conducted this attack on the mall on their own, since the various terrorist networks around the globe mutually support each other to varying degrees, but on the other hand it may been conducted by homeboys from Kenya. It wouldn't surprise me if actors as far away as Pakistan and Yemen were involved (neither are that far away). Much too early to tell at this point, but whatever the truth is, it shouldn't be surprising, since all are credible probabilities.

    http://www.nctc.gov/site/groups/al_shabaab.html

    Al-Shabaab is not centralized or monolithic in its agenda or goals. Its rank-and-file members come from disparate clans, and the group is susceptible to clan politics, internal divisions, and shifting alliances. Most of its fighters are predominantly interested in the nationalistic battle against the TFG and not supportive of global jihad. Al-Shabaab’s senior leadership is affiliated with al-Qa‘ida and is believed to have trained and fought in Afghanistan. The merger of the two groups was publicly announced in February 2012 by the al-Shabaab amir and Ayman al-Zawahiri, leader of al-Qa‘ida.
    http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/05/world/...rticle_sidebar

    Washington (CNN) -- A pre-dawn raid by elite U.S. forces in southern Somalia, in the heart of territory controlled by the al Qaeda subsidiary Al-Shabaab, targeted an Al-Shabaab commander connected to one of the 1998 U.S. embassy bombings, a senior Obama administration official said Sunday.

    The suspected foreign fighter commander is named Ikrima, a Kenyan of Somali origin about whom little is known. The official said Ikrima is associated with two now-deceased al Qaeda operatives who played roles in the 1998 bombing of the U.S. embassy in Nairobi, Kenya, and the 2002 attacks on a hotel and airline in Mombasa, also in Kenya.
    Not only do they have American, British, and Kenya recruits:

    http://www.latimes.com/world/la-fg-s...,4926499.story

    According to Norway's Channel 2, Ikrima had traveled to Norway in 2004 and sought political asylum while living in Oslo. He received travel documents but left in 2008 before authorities had ruled on his asylum request. Two Swedes whom he met in Norway later joined him at Shabab training camps in Somalia, the TV station said, adding that a Swedish member of the Shabab was killed in the SEAL raid Saturday.

    Morten Storm, a Dane who said he has worked for several Western intelligence agencies, told CNN that he helped pass messages between Ikrima and Al Qaeda leaders in Yemen between 2008 and 2012.

    Ikrima communicated directly with Anwar Awlaki, the American-born Al Qaeda leader in Yemen who was killed in a U.S. drone strike in 2011, about going to Yemen but never made the trip, Storm said. Instead Ikrima, who speaks Norwegian, became a key handler of Shabab recruits from the West.
    Last edited by Bill Moore; 10-08-2013 at 08:53 AM.

  19. #119
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    Default Who's afraid of the big bad wolf?

    Quote Originally Posted by omarali50 View Post
    Well, one could say that OEF was misdirected. Still, there has not been another attack, not just because one group of attackers was disrupted and scattered, and because huge investments were made in security, but also because those states capable of hosting and organizing a really serious group of attackers are now scared of the consequences. Deterrence may have been possible at much less cost, but that is a separate issue. Some deterrence was undoubtedly created by that response..and organized groups with serious and capable backers are still (at least somewhat) scared. Otherwise, they would have tried something by now. Or at least, taken very few steps to prevent an operation being carried out by crazier, smaller, less-sane groups.
    There were 8 years between the two WTC attacks. In between there were smaller acts outside of CONUS. AQ has been very active around the globe in the past decade, and have successfully diversified the operational entities into multitudes of wholly owned subsidiary actors. As for sponsorship, I'm not sure I understand exactly who is afraid of whom, but I don't see AQ and the related entities suffering for a lack of safe havens. Finally, the investment in security will, as ever, be gotten around soon enough.

    We have done a whole lot with force and not really changed or improved the situation - and given the time and financial resources expended, this is troubling. We have done blessed little in other areas comparatively, and we certainly haven't done much to understand why there is such permissive support for the animosity towards the West. And that, my friends, is why we are in no better place than 13 years ago. Shame.

    Jill

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    I think the point at which leverage can be applied most cost-effectively is at the level of state supporters of terrorism. They have the most to lose. If no organized state is supporting them, then their future remains dark. Where were the attackers organized, trained and rehearsed? They cannot achieve much out of truly ungoverned spaces like Somalia. If every organized state is afraid of hosting or training them, they will eventually lose.
    That is a big IF.

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