Nine children among 16 dead after US serviceman attacks villagers

[carl]

Here is a NYT article trying to explain why things, so far, haven't boiled over in Afghanistan in the wake of the killings.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/15/wo...ed=2&ref=world

The article says it is a combination of religion trumping all, a quick and well spoken apology, fast payment of blood money, the fact that it wasn't part of a military operation and related to that, what seems to be the realization by the Afghans that this was a criminal act by an individual for which there is at least a chance of the death penalty being imposed. Very astute analysis.

[jmm99]

A valid point has been made about slowdowns in the criminal justice system. One is the time from crime to trial. The other is time from trial to final appeal. The two problems are quite different.

Here is an example from 1970 - Son Thang (16 killed in three hootches). The shootings took place on 19 Feb 1970 in the early evening. The initial forensic investigation (by an intel sensor patrol with an S-2 1st Lt. and a corpsman HN1 with camaras, etc.) began by chance in the late morning of 20 Feb.

The Article 32 hearings (on 5 cases) took 9 days, concluding on 23 March 1970, with the 5 Article 32 reports submitted four weeks later in April.

The first CM (and most comparable to this case in factual issues) was that of Pvt. Michael Schwarz, opening Monday, 15 Jun 1970 and closing Sunday, 21 Jun 1970 - members' verdict and sentence was guilty as charged and specified - 16 premeditated murders with a life sentence for each. The CA had declined to seek the death penalty.

The point (for crime to trial) is that it can be done; but it won't be done unless citizens join in pressure groups to require enactment and enforcement of Speedy Trial Acts. Bitching about lawyers and judges won't cut it.

The time from trial to final appeal problem is exemplified by the Ronald Gray case - a 1988 death sentence still unexecuted in 2012. That problem will not be solved easily, but would require a remake of the trial courts and appellate courts. Solutions can be easily presented - which are simple enough to lay out. Much larger amounts of political clout would have to be mustered to enact those solutions.

Regards

Mike

PS Carl: NYT article is very good. In my unscholarly explanation to me, the green book is the "accident" (appearance); its "substance" is God (because the Word of God is inseparable from God and is co-existent and eternal). Cf. RC doctrine of the consecrated Host: the bread is the "accident" (appearance); the "substance" is God.

I'm using Thomist-based systematic theological terms because of my ignorance of Islamic terms. An educated Muslim would provide an explanation with different terms. But, I believe it gets down to this: to a Muslim, desecration of the Koran is an actual, physical insult to God. To an RC, desecration of the Host is an actual, physical insult to God. God cannot be injured, but He can be insulted.

[M-A Lagrange]

Bonjour Mike,

Did not want to upset you when I said I'm a little p#$$@d off by the fact that there was video surveillance.
I believe my question is fully focused on how is that it could happen? The existence of video surveillance, even if they were of no use at the moment of the incident, demonstrate that it is not taking place in some remote unaccessible lost village.
Most of crimes I am reading about take place in areas where there is no one to witness, no technology to record the criminal acts...

So my interrogation, and you did provide tracks to answer it, was rather could this be avoided? But it will be to a court to pride the final answer to that.

Amicalement

Marc-Andre

[Eden]

Here is a NYT article trying to explain why things, so far, haven't boiled over in Afghanistan in the wake of the killings.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/15/wo...ed=2&ref=world

The article says it is a combination of religion trumping all, a quick and well spoken apology, fast payment of blood money, the fact that it wasn't part of a military operation and related to that, what seems to be the realization by the Afghans that this was a criminal act by an individual for which there is at least a chance of the death penalty being imposed. Very astute analysis.

I think there is also the Afghan equivalent of NIMBY. The murder of a few villagers is unremarkable, and for most Afghans those who died were "not in my village, not in my clan, not in my valley, not in my tribe". There is no emotional connection and therefore no outrage. Desecration of the Qu'ran, on the other hand, attacks one of the few things that give most Afghans some meaning in their life. They must react to that act of desecration in order to preserve their concept of self-worth.

[jmm99]

S.Sgt X's lawyer stateside is John Henry Browne (Wiki), who has been talking to the press:

Seattle Times: Lawyer: Accused soldier was reluctant to deploy to Afghanistan (15 Mar 2012, Mike Carter and Hal Bernton)

NYT: Accused G.I. ‘Snapped’ Under Strain, Official Says (15 Mar 2012, ERIC SCHMITT and WILLIAM YARDLEY).

This sentence from him is definitely a classic:

"The government is going to want to blame this on an individual rather than blame it on the war," he said.

Well, duh, Mr Lawyer. That's the way it works when the government prosecutes someone.

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I was certified as a Trial Lawyer - for whatever that's worth. You get a little pin, which I never wore but still have.



Regards

Mike

[tequila]

I think there is also the Afghan equivalent of NIMBY. The murder of a few villagers is unremarkable, and for most Afghans those who died were "not in my village, not in my clan, not in my valley, not in my tribe". There is no emotional connection and therefore no outrage. Desecration of the Qu'ran, on the other hand, attacks one of the few things that give most Afghans some meaning in their life. They must react to that act of desecration in order to preserve their concept of self-worth.

I think this is a very good analysis, with the qualification of course that if every Afghan thought that they absolutely had to react to the Quran burnings to preserve their self worth, there would be a lot more dead Americans right now that there have been.

[scott_i]

Is this 9/11 related? without knowing the background of the soldier in question but it seems he's been in 11 years(joining at the time or close to 9/11)Did this happen because how that may have affected him?Is this delayed "revenge" for that? The hard part for me why so many children?Adults yes ,Adults can be threats if he had shot only Adults I could almost" jam with that" but children, surely the general consensus is children are not threating?Why so many especially since he's a father ,does he have a child related tragedy in his past perhaps 9/11 related? Of course he might just be a complete and utter fruitcake.

[Kevin23]

The identity of this guy has been leaked according to CNN.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/16/world/...html?hpt=hp_t1

[jmm99]

Worth reading is Bob Scales' OpEd in the Washington Post, Too many wars, too few U.S. soldiers (13 Mar 2012), keeping in mind his own qualification:

My sense is that their collective, intimate exposure to the horrors of close combat was far more debilitating than what we experienced.

This of course in no way justifies what happened in Kandahar.

Asserting a lousy war, asserting a lousy branch of service, asserting lousy National Command Authorities - none of those are valid defenses to homicide; and none of them are likely to influence the members of a GCM.

His cup runneth over, however, is simply a fact as both MG (ret.) Scales and Lord Moran (and a plethora of others) point out.

Sometimes, the overflowing cup becomes obvious in time to prevent harm (Ricks and Stars & Stripes).

Other times, no overflowing cup exists; but the picture of a truly evil person emerges - albeit with some symptoms of mental illness (Stars & Stripes and Orange County Register, source based on grand jury transcript).

The stories linked above (threatened serial killings and actual serial killings) broke this week !

Scott: Welcome to SWC. S.Sgt. Bales' service record (and life history) will be dissected. Perhaps, some of your questions will be answered.

Regards

Mike

[carl]

Is this 9/11 related? without knowing the background of the soldier in question but it seems he's been in 11 years(joining at the time or close to 9/11)Did this happen because how that may have affected him?Is this delayed "revenge" for that? The hard part for me why so many children?Adults yes ,Adults can be threats if he had shot only Adults I could almost" jam with that" but children, surely the general consensus is children are not threating?Why so many especially since he's a father ,does he have a child related tragedy in his past perhaps 9/11 related? Of course he might just be a complete and utter fruitcake.

Scott_i: It doesn't matter why. It murdered, mass murdered. There is no jamming with that no matter the age. It murdered people who could not defend themselves, over and over. Then when it was done, the thing ran back to mommy so it could be protected from the wrath of those close to its victims.

Barring any genuine "heard voices" mental illness or a brain tumor or something like that, the thing deserves nothing but contempt. It isn't a human any more.

[Dayuhan]

The question in my mind is whether there were any warning signs in the picture that might/should have been noticed and acted upon before this happened. Not saying there had to have been, just wondering if there were.

"How could this happen" isn't really the question. Put 100k people under intense pressure for enough time, the laws of probability say sooner or later somebody snaps, no matter how well selected the group is. That makes it all the more important for people to keep watch for any indication that something's not right. Not meant to excuse or justify in any way, just saying that it's a possibility that has to be accepted and looked out for when people are placed in these positions.

[Culpeper]

I'm not going to buy too many deployments. These volunteers get to come home for periods before being redeployed. In the case of this soldier he reenlisted knowing full well he would be deployed throughout his enlistment. Thousands upon thousands have done it without murdering women and children. PTSD is BS as well. I have an uncle that wet the bed for a year after The Bulge but he moved on with his life. I understand the horrors of war but PTSD has lost its value because too many soldiers use it as a form of entitlement. It is an abused diagnosis no different than affirmative action, which doesn't work as originally planned. This guy's record shows he was a a warrior and a leader. Then he made a stupid mistake. I consider him a self-centered SOB that murdered and caused irreversible damage on too many levels. Just sayin'.