Nine children among 16 dead after US serviceman attacks villagers

[jmm99]

At this point, I'm not going to get into investigation techniques - good, botched or in between. Nor, am I going to spew some high-flown rhetoric about the legal rights, etc., of "S.Sgt. X from Fort Lewis" (if that is who he is). There will be plenty of time later to look at whatever judicial process comes into play.

Meanwhile, everybody who wants to build a gallows should say so - right here and now; and get it all out of your systems.

If I were Pres. Obama (which I'm not and I don't write the playbook), I'd get the man out of Astan to a secure location in the US - and take the short term flak.

Regards

Mike

[omarali50]

This is tragic, and while its fully in the category of "it could happen anywhere" (even though its more likely to happen in a war zone), that is not how it is going to be perceived and perceptions matter. An already flawed operation will probably sink faster after this.
Still, this psycho going postal (my apologies to postal workers, I know its an unfair term ,but by now everyone knows what it means) may concentrate some minds on the fact that there IS no visible strategy in Afghanistan. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdNsltQXTVU
To say (as someone in some official position already has) that we will not allow this tragedy to obstruct the mission is to get people thinking "what is the mission"? When enough people think that, the emperor may suddenly feel very naked.
I am not saying there is absolutely no strategy. How would I know? at some level in the deepest recesses of the pentagon and the state dept, there may be several strategies. But they may be at cross-purposes, thats one problem with "secret" strategies...there may be several and nobody knows what is what. With unity of command and one man (say, the president) clearly in charge, at least HIS secret strategy would have some coherence. But that is not how the system is in the US (what president since Nixon would you think of as having a devious enough mind and enough interest in foreign policy to be in that position? Clinton had the IQ, but not the interest..anyway, the problem is likely systemic and not solved by having a different person pretending to be president),so that is not a relevant model. The publicly declared strategy (building a viable Afghan democratic government, etc etc) doesnt seem viable and, more to the point, doesnt look like the actual strategy anyway. People seem to have other unspoken (publicly officially unspoken) thoughts in mind. Maybe they are "containing Pakistan" or doing some strategic bullcrap re central Asia, China, Russia, whatever. In bygone days, we might assume that the elite knows what they are doing but if you watch long enough, that doesnt seem true either. Its a mess.
On the practical matter of the POS who did the shooting, it would have been far far better to shoot him dead right away. ANY trial and ANY punishment from here on will just add to the mess.
Sometimes, there really is no good choice.

[davidbfpo]

I have read a few reactions in the media to this incident and will add two below. Leaving aside the media focus and hype is this event really significant? I would say it is too early to say.

Where is the impact? In Afghanistan, the actual neighbourhood and beyond.

Given the criticism of US funded information operations here:http://circlingthelionsden.blogspot....perations.html I'd not be optimistic on our local and in country response.

The "Circling" author ends with:

It is remarkable that despite the massive spending on IO in Afghanistan in recent years, it is the Taliban that continues to make the running. It operates a highly successful propaganda operation using a multi-language website, twitter and a number of spokesmen who can easily be contacted and who issue timely statements well in advance of any that come from military sources. And all for a few thousand dollars.

Now to the two comments, first the BBC's North America Chief Correspondent:

This killing spree won't, by itself, lead to a quickening of the pace of a pull-out. But it may mean less heed will be paid to those like Senator McCain who think the war is winnable and who think the troops should finish the job before they leave.

Link:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-17335895

The Daily Telegraph's Pakistan correspondent concludes:

This is not the make or break moment in Afghanistan. The danger is that it will be turned into one by American politicians wondering whether it is time to speed up the withdrawal.

Link:http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/ro...sday-scenario/

[Dayuhan]

If I were Pres. Obama (which I'm not and I don't write the playbook), I'd get the man out of Astan to a secure location in the US - and take the short term flak.

Unfortunately the flak is likely to be long term. Different environment of course, but one of the lasting and serious irritants over the military bases in my locale was the US habit of whisking away people accused of crimes. The flak didn't go away, if anything it escalated to mythical levels.

The only thing the US could do to alleviate local anger is to turn the guy over to local justice, which we won't do. No matter what the US does with him, it will be seen as insufficient, a coverup, or both.

More than ever I'm getting the feeling it's time to pack up, tell the Afghans something like "we're sorry for the inconvenience of our presence and we really, really hope you don't make us come back", and go away from that place. They'll sort something out; it will be a mess but it will be their mess. This is just not going anywhere we want to be.

Of course we won't do that either; if we were going to we should have done it a long time ago... IMO of course.

[Culpeper]

All I know is a lot of individuals are making some remarkable mistakes on the ground. And I'm not just talking about coalition people. Some Afghans have turned their weapons on their own coalition trainers as an example.

The problem lies in the fact that COIN cannot afford these mistakes. The other side can and do capitalize on them. They can and do go in a village and murder innocent people. They can afford to do that. It is in their playbook. Murder Incorporated.

We've had a lot problems with the other culture. Even to the point of people shooting their own people in the States. It is a complex and multi-issue problem. Feeling are going to be hurt but the cultural bug-a-boo needs to defined and addressed without all the ridiculous bureaucratic nonsense that loses wars in this day and age; i.e. after 1945.

When you add up all the events in the last year I would say that our current role in Afghanistan is completed. All that is left is diplomacy for strategic purposes. The longer we stay on the current path the more opportunity for more remarkable mistakes by individuals with enormous opportunity cost.

As for this string of mass murder, I'm still waiting for what is the story with this screw up and we all know people close to him probably had a bad feeling about this guy and nobody did a thing because of his rights and blah blah blah.

[Culpeper]

Those looking for the gallows have just cause. We have done it.

"Private Slovik is buried in Plot "E" of Oise-Aisne American Cemetery and Memorial in Fre-en-Tardenois, alongside 95 American soldiers executed for rape and/or murder."(emphasis added).

[JMA]

Those looking for the gallows have just cause. We have done it.

"Private Slovik is buried in Plot "E" of Oise-Aisne American Cemetery and Memorial in Fre-en-Tardenois, alongside 95 American soldiers executed for rape and/or murder."(emphasis added).

OK... now do it again... and quickly!

[omarali50]

"we" are not going to do it again. The world war was a different war anyway, but even the colonial wars of olde are not going to be repeated with any success. Times have changed. I have to run, but the bottom line is "it aint gonna happen" and that is one small reason the whole exercise needs to be re-evaluated.
That too "aint gonna happen". Not just saying "it aint gonna happen the way I would like" (who cares about that). I am saying "it aint gonna happen the way the clear majority of posters here will think and say". That is more interesting.
Why not? I dont know. But I know there is a great novel in there somewhere.

[jmm99]

Please clarify: are you saying that S.Sgt. X should be taken out and hanged right now - if so, why bother with hanging; a .45 hardball in the nape of the neck would be far more efficient and effective ?

Or, would you bother with the intermediate niceties of a GCM - an inconvenience accorded the deserter Slovik and the 95 murderers/rapists ?

Let me make it perfectly f**king clear: I carry no brief against the death penalty. I carry no brief for complicated appellate review. I don't even carry a brief for GCMs. They just happen to be what we do.

Mike Hoare's summary system would be fine with me, especially the part where the decider of the sentence personally has to execute the sentence. I doubt whether Hoare's system would be acceptable to many of you, especially if you were the accused and I were the decider.

Regards

Mike

[Bob's World]

I doubt there is any way to reconcile Afghan perceptions of Justice and US perceptions of Justice on this one. Certainly not within the framework of a western legal system.

This has a global and long-term impact on US influence, far beyond the context of the facts and rumors of this tragic event.

There is no way to "un-ring" this bell.