Concur.Originally Posted by 82redleg
At this point the locals are really PO'd and rightfully so.
Let them hand the piece of Sierra !
Concur.
At this point the locals are really PO'd and rightfully so.
Let them hand the piece of Sierra !
If you want to blend in, take the bus
Carl:
At this point, I'm not going to get into investigation techniques - good, botched or in between. Nor, am I going to spew some high-flown rhetoric about the legal rights, etc., of "S.Sgt. X from Fort Lewis" (if that is who he is). There will be plenty of time later to look at whatever judicial process comes into play.
Meanwhile, everybody who wants to build a gallows should say so - right here and now; and get it all out of your systems.
If I were Pres. Obama (which I'm not and I don't write the playbook), I'd get the man out of Astan to a secure location in the US - and take the short term flak.
Regards
Mike
This is tragic, and while its fully in the category of "it could happen anywhere" (even though its more likely to happen in a war zone), that is not how it is going to be perceived and perceptions matter. An already flawed operation will probably sink faster after this.
Still, this psycho going postal (my apologies to postal workers, I know its an unfair term ,but by now everyone knows what it means) may concentrate some minds on the fact that there IS no visible strategy in Afghanistan. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdNsltQXTVU
To say (as someone in some official position already has) that we will not allow this tragedy to obstruct the mission is to get people thinking "what is the mission"? When enough people think that, the emperor may suddenly feel very naked.
I am not saying there is absolutely no strategy. How would I know? at some level in the deepest recesses of the pentagon and the state dept, there may be several strategies. But they may be at cross-purposes, thats one problem with "secret" strategies...there may be several and nobody knows what is what. With unity of command and one man (say, the president) clearly in charge, at least HIS secret strategy would have some coherence. But that is not how the system is in the US (what president since Nixon would you think of as having a devious enough mind and enough interest in foreign policy to be in that position? Clinton had the IQ, but not the interest..anyway, the problem is likely systemic and not solved by having a different person pretending to be president),so that is not a relevant model. The publicly declared strategy (building a viable Afghan democratic government, etc etc) doesnt seem viable and, more to the point, doesnt look like the actual strategy anyway. People seem to have other unspoken (publicly officially unspoken) thoughts in mind. Maybe they are "containing Pakistan" or doing some strategic bullcrap re central Asia, China, Russia, whatever. In bygone days, we might assume that the elite knows what they are doing but if you watch long enough, that doesnt seem true either. Its a mess.
On the practical matter of the POS who did the shooting, it would have been far far better to shoot him dead right away. ANY trial and ANY punishment from here on will just add to the mess.
Sometimes, there really is no good choice.
Doomsday or another "straw" ?
I have read a few reactions in the media to this incident and will add two below. Leaving aside the media focus and hype is this event really significant? I would say it is too early to say.
Where is the impact? In Afghanistan, the actual neighbourhood and beyond.
Given the criticism of US funded information operations here:http://circlingthelionsden.blogspot....perations.html I'd not be optimistic on our local and in country response.
The "Circling" author ends with:Now to the two comments, first the BBC's North America Chief Correspondent:It is remarkable that despite the massive spending on IO in Afghanistan in recent years, it is the Taliban that continues to make the running. It operates a highly successful propaganda operation using a multi-language website, twitter and a number of spokesmen who can easily be contacted and who issue timely statements well in advance of any that come from military sources. And all for a few thousand dollars.Link:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-17335895This killing spree won't, by itself, lead to a quickening of the pace of a pull-out. But it may mean less heed will be paid to those like Senator McCain who think the war is winnable and who think the troops should finish the job before they leave.
The Daily Telegraph's Pakistan correspondent concludes:Link:http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/ro...sday-scenario/This is not the make or break moment in Afghanistan. The danger is that it will be turned into one by American politicians wondering whether it is time to speed up the withdrawal.
davidbfpo
Unfortunately the flak is likely to be long term. Different environment of course, but one of the lasting and serious irritants over the military bases in my locale was the US habit of whisking away people accused of crimes. The flak didn't go away, if anything it escalated to mythical levels.
The only thing the US could do to alleviate local anger is to turn the guy over to local justice, which we won't do. No matter what the US does with him, it will be seen as insufficient, a coverup, or both.
More than ever I'm getting the feeling it's time to pack up, tell the Afghans something like "we're sorry for the inconvenience of our presence and we really, really hope you don't make us come back", and go away from that place. They'll sort something out; it will be a mess but it will be their mess. This is just not going anywhere we want to be.
Of course we won't do that either; if we were going to we should have done it a long time ago... IMO of course.
“The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary”
H.L. Mencken
All I know is a lot of individuals are making some remarkable mistakes on the ground. And I'm not just talking about coalition people. Some Afghans have turned their weapons on their own coalition trainers as an example.
The problem lies in the fact that COIN cannot afford these mistakes. The other side can and do capitalize on them. They can and do go in a village and murder innocent people. They can afford to do that. It is in their playbook. Murder Incorporated.
We've had a lot problems with the other culture. Even to the point of people shooting their own people in the States. It is a complex and multi-issue problem. Feeling are going to be hurt but the cultural bug-a-boo needs to defined and addressed without all the ridiculous bureaucratic nonsense that loses wars in this day and age; i.e. after 1945.
When you add up all the events in the last year I would say that our current role in Afghanistan is completed. All that is left is diplomacy for strategic purposes. The longer we stay on the current path the more opportunity for more remarkable mistakes by individuals with enormous opportunity cost.
As for this string of mass murder, I'm still waiting for what is the story with this screw up and we all know people close to him probably had a bad feeling about this guy and nobody did a thing because of his rights and blah blah blah.
"But suppose everybody on our side felt that way?"
"Then I'd certainly be a damned fool to feel any other way. Wouldn't I?"
And then there was Eddie Slovik
Those looking for the gallows have just cause. We have done it.
"Private Slovik is buried in Plot "E" of Oise-Aisne American Cemetery and Memorial in Fre-en-Tardenois, alongside 95 American soldiers executed for rape and/or murder."(emphasis added).
"But suppose everybody on our side felt that way?"
"Then I'd certainly be a damned fool to feel any other way. Wouldn't I?"
OK... now do it again... and quickly!
"we" are not going to do it again. The world war was a different war anyway, but even the colonial wars of olde are not going to be repeated with any success. Times have changed. I have to run, but the bottom line is "it aint gonna happen" and that is one small reason the whole exercise needs to be re-evaluated.
That too "aint gonna happen". Not just saying "it aint gonna happen the way I would like" (who cares about that). I am saying "it aint gonna happen the way the clear majority of posters here will think and say". That is more interesting.
Why not? I dont know. But I know there is a great novel in there somewhere.
And of course if we did that, the conspiracy folks would simply say that he was the scapegoat for a larger CIA/Government/UN conspiracy of some sort or another.
No good way out, that's for sure. As David points out, though, it's hard to project the long-term impact.
"On the plains and mountains of the American West, the United States Army had once learned everything there was to learn about hit-and-run tactics and guerrilla warfare."
T.R. Fehrenbach This Kind of War
The critical thing is whether this mass murder quickens the pace of the the ongoing pattern of ANSF people murdering ISAF people. That is what concerns me the most. If it does quicken that pace and it is bad enough, we will be out much sooner than anticipated and that will probably include the spec ops people.
"We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene
Agreed, there is no easy way out.
The Army has been handing out article 15s since the early 70s for looking at your Battery CO the wrong way. A snobby (barely out of college) O-3 can tarnish your potential career and ability to ever hold a Confidential security clearance (ever) because he doesn't like the way you looked at him.
But, you can freak out, destroy people's lives and forever tarnish the reputation of the entire US Military and simply end up with a dishonorable discharge and reduction in grade. So, the Delta Hotel in question will sit at home and wallow in his Sierra making my last 23 years look like a cake walk.
I disagree vehemently.
He has 3 kids at home and while drunk shoots eight ?One witness said she saw the man drag a woman out of her house and repeatedly hit her head against a wall.
Officials have offered no explanation for the incident, but reports suggest the soldier might have been drunk, or had suffered a nervous breakdown.
There's your conspiracy theory !
Last edited by Stan; 03-12-2012 at 08:26 PM.
If you want to blend in, take the bus
I'm not crazy about how the system works, either. There's no question that it's jacked, and in some cases favors those with rank over those who have none. Don't have to go back very far to find examples of that in action...some that really make you wonder.
But I know I'm preaching to the choir on that one.
And you know the sort of conspiracy that would spring up. He was the point man for a larger CIA plot to cripple Afghanistan by killing their women and children, choking off the future of the tribes. But when it went south, the evil Crusader gov'ment decided to whack the one man who knew the truth. Etc., etc. Like I said...no simple way out. One moron can do a world of hurt.
"On the plains and mountains of the American West, the United States Army had once learned everything there was to learn about hit-and-run tactics and guerrilla warfare."
T.R. Fehrenbach This Kind of War
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