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Thread: Nine children among 16 dead after US serviceman attacks villagers

  1. #121
    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
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    I am intrigued at the accused's defence lawyer's declared intention to travel to Afghanistan, presumably to examine the scene and interview witnesses.

    Who is going to protect him in Afghanistan, notably in the village?

    Can't imagine any insurance company will relish providing high risk cover.
    davidbfpo

  2. #122
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidbfpo View Post
    Who is going to protect him in Afghanistan, notably in the village?
    The same Army that, after returning to the US, he will lambaste in Court and in the media...

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    Default HT to Carl (Gift at end of my post)

    00-02283

    Extract: Award NASD Dispute Resolution In the Matter of the Arbitration Between: Gary K. Liebschner, (Claimant) vs. Michael Patterson, Inc., Michael Patterson, Dain Rauscher Incorporated, Robert Bales, Quantum Capital Corporation, Thomas Dooley HI, Ernest Dahlen IH, and Adolphus Dubose Jr., (Respondents) Case Number: 00-02283 Hearing Site: Columbus, Ohio
    REPRESENTATION OF PARTIES Claimant, Gary K. Liebschner, hereinafter referred to as "Claimant": Earle R. Frost
    Size: 296286 bytes
    Date of award: 04/16/2003
    The 10-page Award will become evidence as soon as Bales' credibility is put at issue - e.g., if he takes the stand. Two findings seriously injure that credibility:

    1. The Panel finds that Respondents Bales, MPI, and Patterson engaged in fraud, breach of fiduciary duty, churning, unauthorized trading, and unsuitable investments. [$637,000.00 as compensatory damages]
    ...
    3. Bales, MPI, and Patterson are jointly and severally liable for and shall pay to Claimant the sum of $637,000.00 as punitive damages. Ohio law permits punitive damages to be awarded in tort and fraud claims when the conduct is willful or malicious. The Panel finds Bales' and Patterson's conduct in this matter to be fraudulent and malicious.
    That doesn't mean that facts concerning the Gary K. Liebschner claim, but not stated in the award, will be admitted.

    So, now, we have two items of character evidence: CPT Chris Alexander, who (unless something adverse surfaces on him) seems to truthfully present what he knew of Bales; and the Arbitration Award, presenting a different picture, and which is binding on Bales as a judgment.

    As to Atty. Browne, I found this interesting (from Wiki) (supporting footnotes in Wiki):

    Browne gained nationwide attention as lead plaintiff in a lawsuit filed in 2007 by famous class action lawyer Steve Berman against Avvo, a law-related review site.[7] He was reportedly upset that the site had rated him "average" via a rating system that evaluates vertical disciplinary stature. [8][9] That suit was dismissed on pre-trial motion, on grounds that the ratings were expressions of opinion protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution.[10]
    I conclude that Atty. Browne is a sensitive man, who will pull the libel trigger if he feels offended; but that's definitely just an opinion. I'm sure his travel and personal security will be negotiated with the DoD - that sort of thing was handled during the Vietnam War in multiple cases.

    As to the "defenses" of trying the War and trying the Army, can you all see them flying with members of a court-martial ?

    As to forensics, Afghani witnesses, etc., I covered that in this post - still a long way to travel, and my reasoning is unchanged.

    Regards

    Mike

    ------------------------
    Carl:

    Moving away from all this misery, Marcelaine Wininger Lewis (she says she's a "sky chick", which is true ; but she also is smart, a good writer and teacher - and tougher than nails when she needs to be) wrote Why is CMX where it is ?. You know that destination. The article (from Vintage Airplane) tells of Caesar Lucchesi and his son Leo Lucchesi, founders of Copper Country aviation, and grandfather and uncle of "Geno" (of Blue Goose and Northwest Airlines "fame" - actually a hell of a guy and my friend; as was Leo, with whom I shared many Blue Goose trips).

  4. #124
    Council Member carl's Avatar
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    Bloomberg reports in this article

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-0...3-million.html

    that there is apparently another different complaint on file with the Commerce Dept. of the State of Ohio involving bonds.
    "We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene

  5. #125
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carl View Post
    Bloomberg reports in this article

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-0...3-million.html

    that there is apparently another different complaint on file with the Commerce Dept. of the State of Ohio involving bonds.
    Hey Carl,
    Not my background, but rubbing all this dirt in his face is to convince people that he was capable of shooting children ? It would be too perfect to find some correlation between the two events.

    By then, Bales was already in the Army, having enlisted in November 2001, less than two months after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, according to an Army statement.
    I don't get this at all. I had a soldier who ran from his financial responsibilities when he joined and the Army took the legal amounts from his pay before he knew what happened. Something to the tune of $150 a month for 3 years. What does joining the Army after 9/11 have to do with his legal responsibilities ? He didn't just disappear off the face of the earth ???

    Just my confused opinion
    If you want to blend in, take the bus

  6. #126
    Council Member carl's Avatar
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    Bloomberg is just digging and reporting what they find. I don't know if it is rubbing dirt in a face as much as reporting the history of actions.

    One of the reasons it is interesting to me is as a counter to the people who believe a good person can just "snap" and suddenly do horrific things. People don't just snap. There is normally some kind of unsavory history. In this case, maybe two instances of major league fraud and a domestic violence incident. I would be very surprised if there wasn't more.

    You can disappear pretty easy if people don't look for you very hard, and a lot don't. But in this case, who knows?
    "We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene

  7. #127
    Council Member slapout9's Avatar
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    Just follow the money!!!!




    Clip on how to follow the money from "All The Presidents Men"
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVNU5jkOwzU
    Last edited by slapout9; 03-22-2012 at 07:10 PM. Reason: stuff

  8. #128
    Council Member Dayuhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carl View Post
    Bloomberg is just digging and reporting what they find. I don't know if it is rubbing dirt in a face as much as reporting the history of actions.

    One of the reasons it is interesting to me is as a counter to the people who believe a good person can just "snap" and suddenly do horrific things. People don't just snap. There is normally some kind of unsavory history. In this case, maybe two instances of major league fraud and a domestic violence incident. I would be very surprised if there wasn't more.

    You can disappear pretty easy if people don't look for you very hard, and a lot don't. But in this case, who knows?
    The financial allegations need to be seen in the context of the time. By '98-2000 the stuff mentioned in the charges had become practically standard procedure in US brokerages... it was a quite deranged time in that industry. It wasn't all coming from the brokers, either: clients in those days were pushing for larger and larger returns and more aggressive strategies. You couldn't sell a conservative low-risk financial strategy in 98-99; brokers who tried went out of business... everybody wanted "the next Yahoo" strategies. When the balloon popped in 2000/2001 there were tens of thousands, probably hundreds of thousands of similar cases, which might be one reason why this was never followed up. That doesn't excuse the actions, but I wouldn't look at them as something that was a major deviation from norm either. If everyone involved in shady financial dealings from '97-2000 was a murderer waiting to happen there'd be a whole heap of murders going on.
    “The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary”

    H.L. Mencken

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    Default Three points

    Carl:

    ... the people who believe a good person can just "snap" and suddenly do horrific things. People don't just snap. There is normally some kind of unsavory history.
    I wish it always worked that way. It doesn't. Extremely good people, with NO "unsavory history", before and after the "snap", can "snap" and be dangerous to themselves and to others. That's not going to be enlarged here, either publicly or via PM, but it is true.

    ---------------
    The fraud and misdemeanor evidence:

    Firstly has to meet basic standards of admissibility (certified documents in prior proceedings; e.g., the arbitration award; or, less likely, by witnesses with personal knowledge - see, fourth point).

    Secondly, fraud and misdemeanor evidence cannot come in directly to prove Bales committed 17 murders - the pre-event civil and criminal charges are not similar enough to what is charged.

    Thirdly, the fraud evidence and (less likely) the misdemeanor evidence could be admitted if Bales' credibility comes into issue - e.g., by testifying, or possibly to impreach what he says to a psychiatrist who then testifies.

    Fourthly, credibility and impeachment thereof are collateral issues to the primary issue of guilt on the charges and specifications. Therefore, the military judge will have considerable discretion in admitting or rejecting evidence on these collateral points.

    --------------------------------
    Charge Sheet

    From the National (about 45 minutes ago), Charges in Afghan Shooting Will Be Start of Long Legal Journey:

    By Yochi J. Dreazen
    Updated: March 22, 2012 | 8:06 p.m.
    March 22, 2012 | 7:31 p.m.

    The Army’s decision to formally charge Staff Sgt. Robert Bales with 17 counts of homicide for his alleged role in a mass shooting in southern Afghanistan will mark the start of a long legal process that is virtually certain to continue long after U.S. troops have withdrawn from the country.

    Army prosecutors will charge Bales with the 17 counts of homicide on Friday, according to a U.S. official. The full charge sheet is virtually certain to also include an array of other charges, including attempted murder, assault, and dereliction of duty. Bales is the sole suspect in the crime; if convicted, he could face the death penalty.

    The charges begin what is likely to be a long and complex trial. Military officials believe they have a strong case, pointing to surveillance videotape which they say shows Bales leaving the base shortly before the shootings and returning not long afterwards. Senior military officials say Bales turned himself in after returning to the base and surrendered his weapon. They believe, in the words of one military official, that he simply “snapped.” ... (much more in article)
    Nothing to say about that until the Charge Sheet is filed.

    A good comment by Neal Puckett (e.g., Haditha Marines) on his own webpage, Public Opinion on SSG Bales Alleged Offense Featured:

    Military.com is reporting that many are willing to cut SSG Bales some slack for the alleged shooting of Afghani citizens based on the idea that a good Soldier simply snapped. What is wrong with this statement is the fact that military justice is based on criminal wrong doing of individual actions that destroy good order and discipline of a military team.

    Individual military members are liable for their actions at all times under the Uniform Code of Military Justice. The individual in the military is subject to extensive training with a unit, is under the command of senior non-commissioned and commissioned officers, and while in country, has had rules of engagement drilled into their daily operations.

    No one individual in the military stands alone. SSG Bales entire unit was there that evening to support him and in effect, failed in their duties as unit members to observe the moment in which he may have “snapped.” While diagnosed psychological pressures and command environment are factors military defense attorneys use to explain why a military member snaps, it is not necessarily a reason to not face the fact that the evidence may point directly to SSG Bales as the shooter.

    Military justice will provide the evidence in a military court-martial and the military members will determine the guilt and subsequent sentence based on those facts. The next step in the process is beginning the military justice process with a charge sheet and the appointment of an Article 32 investigating officer to determine whether sufficient evidence exists to warrant a trial by court-martial.
    Just saying

    Regards

    Mike
    Last edited by jmm99; 03-23-2012 at 01:09 AM.

  10. #130
    Council Member carl's Avatar
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    Dayuhan:

    I disagree. The arbitration found fraud, unauthorized trading, churning and breach of fiduciary duty. None of those can be considered within the bounds of aggressive investing. They are all pretty well within the bounds of lying, cheating and stealing regardless of investment climate of the time. The arbitrator imposed whopping punitive damages, so I believe it probably was beyond the bounds.

    It is part of a pattern. Does it mean that any grifter is a mass murderer? No, but it does mean that mass murder doesn't normally come from nowhere.

    A record like this would have resulted in a failed background check, definitively failed, in the PD I was familiar with.
    Last edited by carl; 03-23-2012 at 01:33 AM.
    "We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene

  11. #131
    Council Member carl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmm99 View Post
    I wish it always worked that way. It doesn't. Extremely good people, with NO "unsavory history", before and after the "snap", can "snap" and be dangerous to themselves and to others. That's not going to be enlarged here, either publicly or via PM, but it is true.
    I said almost always. I said that because I knew never to say never. But I still believe it to be mostly true. Good people don't just snap. There almost always is a history, especially in acts of criminal violence directed against others. There sure as heck is one in this case.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmm99 View Post
    The fraud and misdemeanor evidence:
    ...is interesting to me because it shows a pre-existing disposition to criminality. Whether that has any bearing on the prosecution's case or not you know far better than I.
    Last edited by carl; 03-23-2012 at 01:31 AM.
    "We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene

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    Default Carl:

    My BLUF: I'd say that a person with proven past credibility problems (fraud, malicious manipulation, etc.; an "unsavory history") would be more likely to (1) fake an insanity defense; and (2) con people into believing that he is a good guy. That guy would have a pre-disposition to be a good liar; and, yes, a pre-disposition to criminality of the fraud type. That is why evidence of past criminal acts of a similar nature may be allowed into evidence to show a pattern - e.g., a pattern of con artistry. But, most con artists are not murderers.

    What could be shaping up here may simply be an evil person (with or without a mental illness component less than insanity), who is in effect a serial killer. That type of person may show few (if any) signs of becoming a serial killer, except in hindsight.

    I mentioned that type of person in this post, Measures of Men, although no one commented on him. The grand jury transcript is the source for the stories in Stars & Stripes, Transcript: Suspect killed to become 'real Marine'; and the Orange County Register, Serial killings testimony: Suspect needed to kill. Yup, presumption of innocence, and all that; but it tells why the defendant was indicted.

    From the Register:

    By LARRY WELBORN / THE ORANGE COUNTY REGISTER

    The Iraq war veteran indicted in the murders of four homeless men and two others during a three-month killing spree told an Anaheim detective after his arrest in January that he joined the Marine Corps to be become a killer, according to court documents obtained by The Orange County Register.

    But Itzcoatl "Izzy" Ocampo, 23, said he was disappointed when he did not see any combat during a six-month tour of duty in Iraq when he "became a truck driver instead of a killer," according to a transcript of a secret hearing of the Orange County grand jury.
    ...
    (long review of the grand jury transcript in article)
    ...
    Wyatt also told the grand jury that he noticed that as Ocampo was describing each of the murders during the interrogation, his demeanor would change.

    "He seemed to get excited when he was talking about the actual kill," Wyatt testified. "So, I asked him if he was aroused by the act of killing."

    Ocampo at first questioned the word arousal, according to the transcript, but then added, "my balls felt like they were going to explode, and I knew that I had the killer gene."
    The Bales' case, so far, has nothing like this.

    Regards

    Mike

  13. #133
    Council Member slapout9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carl View Post
    I said almost always. I said that because I knew never to say never. But I still believe it to be mostly true. Good people don't just snap. There almost always is a history, especially in acts of criminal violence directed against others. There sure as heck is one in this case.



    ...is interesting to me because it shows a pre-existing disposition to criminality. Whether that has any bearing on the prosecution's case or not you know far better than I.
    Thats exactly right, if they keep digging this guy will have a long history of screwing people and he likes it. He planned this whole thing.

  14. #134
    Council Member carl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmm99 View Post
    My BLUF: I'd say that a person with proven past credibility problems (fraud, malicious manipulation, etc.; an "unsavory history") would be more likely to (1) fake an insanity defense; and (2) con people into believing that he is a good guy. That guy would have a pre-disposition to be a good liar; and, yes, a pre-disposition to criminality of the fraud type. That is why evidence of past criminal acts of a similar nature may be allowed into evidence to show a pattern - e.g., a pattern of con artistry. But, most con artists are not murderers.
    I agree with all you say but will add something. Most con artists are not murderers but many serial killers are good con men, ie. charming and convincing liars. In this case there may be a similar pattern.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmm99 View Post
    What could be shaping up here may simply be an evil person (with or without a mental illness component less than insanity), who is in effect a serial killer. That type of person may show few (if any) signs of becoming a serial killer, except in hindsight.
    This is goes with what Slap says above, that this thing was planned out. I think that there may have been a shrewed (sic) appreciation of the political situation and the difficulties of prosecution vis-a-vis normal American standards of forensics and witness', and all that was figured into it the goal of course being to get away with it. The killer who killed all the college girls in many states used to do that, snatch the girl in one jurisdiction, kill her in another and dispose of her body in a third; all to make it hard for the cops.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmm99 View Post
    The Bales' case, so far, has nothing like this.
    It never will. It is the difference between a young inexperienced hood and one who is older, more experienced and knows not to say anything at all to the cops.
    Last edited by carl; 03-23-2012 at 02:47 PM.
    "We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene

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    Default "Snapped" vs Planned

    is the question - still to resolved, but the focus is narrowing.

    Agreed:

    Most con artists are not murderers but many serial killers are good con men, ie. charming and convincing liars.
    I've no first hand knowledge of people convicted of serial or mass murders (one on ones with them); but only second hand knowledge from people who had first hand knowledge. The most recent was local in the 1990s (People vs Goodreau, who is serving life for serial murders; I went to Michigan Tech with a father of one of the victims, continued friendship with him, etc.). The most well-known (and similar mass homicide incident) was Richard Speck, who had a local connection to people who talked to me then:

    Speck found work immediately after obtaining a letter of authority, joining the 33-member crew of Inland Steel's Clarence B. Randall, an L6-S-B1 class bulk ore lake freighter, on April 30. Speck's first voyage on the Clarence B. Randall was brief—he was stricken with appendicitis on May 3—and was evacuated by U.S. Coast Guard helicopter to St. Joseph's Hospital in Hancock, Michigan on the Keweenaw Peninsula of Michigan's Upper Peninsula where he had an emergency appendectomy.

    After he was discharged from the hospital, Speck returned to stay with his sister Martha and her family in Chicago to recuperate. On May 20 he rejoined the crew of the Clarence B. Randall on which he served until June 14 when he got drunk and quarreled with one of the boat's officers and was put ashore on June 15. For the following week, Speck stayed at the St. Elmo, an East Side, Chicago flophouse at E. 99th St. & S. Ewing Ave. Speck then traveled by train to Houghton, Michigan, staying at the Douglas House, to visit Judy Laakaniemi, a 28-year-old nurse's aide going through a divorce, whom he had befriended at St. Joseph's Hospital. On June 27, after Judy gave him $80 to help him until he found work, Speck left to again stay with his sister Martha and her family in Chicago for the next two weeks.
    Both Goodreau and Speck fit the con artist profile. I've also had one on ones with two people who went on to bigger things and are now serving life (though for neither serial murders nor mass murders) and who fit the con artist profile.

    Thus, I've limited direct experience with serial and mass murderers. Michigan does not have the death penalty which I've already discussed.

    A good lead to follow:

    ... what Slap says above, that this thing was planned out.
    But, this is also true:

    It [confession by Bales] never will. It is the difference between a young inexperienced hood and one who is older, more experienced and knows not to say anything at all to the cops.
    But, the video has the man (on return) saying: "I did it." An announcement that he completed a "plan" known to others ?

    Regards

    Mike
    Last edited by jmm99; 03-23-2012 at 05:23 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidbfpo View Post
    I am intrigued at the accused's defence lawyer's declared intention to travel to Afghanistan, presumably to examine the scene and interview witnesses.

    Who is going to protect him in Afghanistan, notably in the village?

    Can't imagine any insurance company will relish providing high risk cover.
    Steven Green's lawyers asked to go to Iraq but the federal court denied their request amongst other things citing safety.

    http://www.kywd.uscourts.gov/3-06-00...inDocument.pdf

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    Default Charge Sheet

    Robert Bales.

    -------------------------------
    Added links and Subsequent Decisions in Green case.

    Opinion & Order in Green case re: travel to Iraq - Doc 214 in District Court and Docket Sheet.

    United States v. Green (6th Circuit Opinion; August 16, 2011) (major MEJA decision), p.23:

    Green’s claim that the district court lacked jurisdiction over him fails because his discharge from the Army was valid. Furthermore, Green’s constitutional claims fail because MEJA does not offend the separation-of-powers principle or the nondelegation doctrine, equal protection, or due process. Thus, we AFFIRM the decision of the district court.
    SCOTUS, Certiorari denied (9 Jan 2012) [letter notice by William K. Suter, Clerk of SCOTUS - MG US Army (ret.) - Wiki:

    To distinguish him from former Supreme Court Associate Justice David Souter, Suter is often referred to within the Supreme Court by the nickname "The General" or as "General Suter". General Suter is a prolific speaker about the Court. A popular figure in the national bar, he has received numerous honors for his frequent outreach efforts, including honorary degrees. A college basketball player, General Suter has been known throughout his career for his love of the sport. At the Court, he was known for playing basketball with law clerks on the "highest court in the land".
    Regards

    Mike

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    Council Member carl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmm99 View Post
    But, the video has the man (on return) saying: "I did it." An announcement that he completed a "plan" known to others ?
    If that were true, this nightmare just got 5 shades darker. Lord, I hope you are wrong.

    I have zero first hand experience with serial killers Mike. All I know is what I read and what others have told me. I should have made that clear.
    "We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene

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    Afghan shootings done in 2 trips from base

    WASHINGTON — Military investigators suspect that the American soldier charged with 17 counts of premeditated murder and other charges in connection with the attacks against Afghan civilians earlier this month committed the shootings during two separate operations, a United States official said Saturday.

    The official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because of the continuing investigation, said that the investigators believe that the soldier, Staff Sgt. Robert Bales, left the Afghanistan base and carried out the first set of killings, returned to the combat outpost, and then, sometime later that evening, went out and attacked a second village. It was on his return from the second foray that Sergeant Bales was detained, the official said.

    The Associated Press first reported the military’s findings about the two separate operations.

    The official said this account emerged from a wide range of interviews that Army investigators have conducted over the last several days as they try to piece together what happened that night and why.

    The scenario, he said, seems to support the United States government’s assertion that the killings were carried out by one person. But the official said there was no detailed chronology or an explanation, thus far, of how Bales was able to go back and forth and only be detected the second time he returned to the base.

  20. #140
    Council Member carl's Avatar
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    3 more ISAF people shot dead by ANSF or local police.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/27/wo...html?ref=world

    And then 10 suicide vests found around the Afghan Defence Ministry, some in guard shacks.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/28/wo...html?ref=world

    Unknown whether these events are in partially in response to the mass murder or part of the continuing pattern of ANSF people murdering ISAF people.

    What can you say?
    "We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene

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