Nine children among 16 dead after US serviceman attacks villagers

[Ken White]

It works...

[jmm99]

I get you - no bad on your part in my eyes. The flavor I got was that to you this guy committed a form of treason - just as to me, Tim McVeigh and Terry Nichols were guilty of treason against their country, even though they were not charged with that crime. They collaberated in an act of war against the US in which people died. Both should now be dead.

That being said, I don't get emotional about these cases. I suppose Yale Kamisar (like Ken, a Korean Police Action participant), my Criminal Law & Procedure + Con Law prof, would say: JMM, you suffer from "trained indifference" - or, it just may be my personality. In any event, to me, death penalty situations are best viewed non-emotionally. E.g., The Green Mile.

Carl: Can't help you on that. I've been advised (by "senior LEOs" ) that, on a traffic stop, I'd best open the driver's window, keep both hands on the wheel high, and let the officer give the instructions.

Of course, Astan is not a law enforcement situation (no matter how much some folks would like to make it that). The people had 30 years of being subjugated by armed conflicts before we got there. The "Armed Citizen" cannot exist in that environment because a neutral "Armed Citizen" will be viewed as a threat by one or all sides to the conflict. The people become passive because their "Armed Citizens" have either been killed or disarmed. What I've said is a sweeping generality not true in all areas.

There is now a Wiki on this, Panjwai shooting spree.

Two news items:

AP: Afghan official says surveillance video shows US soldier surrendering after civilians killed (14 Mar 2012; MIRWAIS KHAN and SEBASTIAN ABBOT):

The U.S. soldier suspected of killing 16 Afghan villagers on a rampage was caught on surveillance video that showed him walking up to his base, laying down his weapon and raising his arms in surrender, according to an Afghan official who viewed the footage.

The official said Wednesday there were also two to three hours of video footage covering the time of the attack that Afghan investigators are trying to get from the U.S. military. He spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the issue. .... (more)

"S.Sgt X" surrendered, we know that. If there are two to three hours of video footage (and/or other sensors), evidence is coming on board - depends on its quality. We have already seen the forensics team picking up casings.

AP: American soldier suspected of killing 16 Afghan civilians flown out of country (14 Mar 2012; by HEIDI VOGT):

A U.S. military official says the American soldier accused of killings 16 Afghan civilians on a shooting spree has been flown out of the country.

The official said Wednesday that the soldier has been flown to a "pretrial confinement facility" in another country but did not provide further details. The official spoke on condition of anonymity because the information had not yet been publicly announced.

The official did not provide a reason for the move, saying only that the decision had been made to continue legal proceedings outside of Afghanistan.

Thus, Holman didn't come down and isn't going to.

Regards

Mike

[JMA]

Who removed Backwards Observer's post?

[Backwards Observer]

Who removed Backwards Observer's post?

I removed it. I thought it might upset the natives. Henceforth, I should prefer to focus solely on the positive...it's time to laugh again.

[M-A Lagrange]

"S.Sgt X" surrendered, we know that. If there are two to three hours of video footage (and/or other sensors), evidence is coming on board - depends on its quality. We have already seen the forensics team picking up casings.

What supprises me and also, I must say, piss me off a little, it the fact there are like 2 to 3 hours of video surveillance.
And nobody saw it happening?, No body reacted?
What are the video surveillance made for then?

I know this is kind of naive reaction but I would think that if you have video surveillance it is to actually have early warning mechanisms and immediat response team ready.

The man went mad for sure but it also feels like the whole system has failed somehow.

[JMA]

I removed it. I thought it might upset the natives. Henceforth, I should prefer to focus solely on the positive...it's time to laugh again.

To borrow from Kipling's poem Gunga Din: "You're a better man than I am"

[Backwards Observer]

To borrow from Kipling's poem Gunga Din: "You're a better man than I am"

Ah, ha h..(choke), hahar, (cough) hargh, harrr (spit)...the hell with it.

[stanleywinthrop]

The UCMJ was written as an adhoc justice system which-nominally-should be fairly swift--or at least swifter than most civilian systems.

What seems evident is that for whatever reason the UCMJ has turned glacial when it comes to high profile cases. Wuterich took 7-SEVEN! years to go to trial. Hasan is supposed to go to trial on June 12, 2012--almost three years. Better, but certainly not swift

By contrast, in the federal system the government is required to bring a case to trial within 70 days of indictment. The defense must consent if the government wishes to delay beyond that (in most circumstances).

There is no doubt that Sgt. X's court martial will take years to get to as well. My bet is 5 yrs minimum.

[jmm99]

Bonjour,

What I've read is that the video was taken from a blimp. If so, command & control over the blimp and its video feeds was probably not at the OutPost where the shooter was stationed. Or, were there multiple video feeds (and/or sound feeds) from other sensors - some under the OP's C&C ? "Prophet" might be all over the place, but he doesn't necessarily add 2+2=4. I don't know at this time.

For the sake of discussion, I've taken (from the Wiki) what could be the existing facts re: the geography and timeline (not known to me):

According to official reports, a heavily-armed American soldier left his base at 3:00 a.m. local time wearing night vision goggles. He was wearing a traditional Afgan clothing over his ISAF fatigues. The soldier proceeded to attack three civilian homes in the villages of Alkozai and Najeeban ... Eleven members of the same family were killed in Najeeban, then their bodies were partially burned. Four members of another family were killed in Alkozai. ...
...
Following the events at Alkozai and Najeeban a U.S. soldier handed himself over into ISAF custody. Afghan forces spotted him leaving his outpost before the massacre and U.S. commanders on base assembled their troops for a head count when it was discovered that the soldier was missing. A patrol was dispatched to find the missing soldier; it did not find him until the soldier turned himself in at the base after the massacre. He was reportedly taken into custody without incident. There were no other military operations being conducted in the area at the time.

The surveillance video from the base [JMM: "from the base" may not be accurate] reportedly shows "the soldier walking up to his base covered in a traditional Afghan shawl. The soldier removes the shawl and lays his weapon on the ground, then raises his arms in surrender." The video was not disclosed to the public.

Footnotes omitted (see the Wiki).

So, before anyone gets pi$$ed off at higher-ups for not stopping the events that occured in the time between the shooter leaving and coming back, we have to know who knew what and when - and what the shooter was doing when and where. I don't have that data.

What is spooky here is the similarity with 1970 Son Thang (about 1500-2000 metres from the Marine Coy OP), where 16 people were killed at two separate locations (two houses in one; one house in another). The Marine patrol took less than an hour out and back. By a fluke, another Marine patrol (including an S-2 Lt. and a corpsman) were told by villagers of the killings shortly after. That patrol was able to make a good forensic investigation of the three scenes.

Once the facts are in, Lagrange would be a better judge of small unit reaction time than McCarthy. You've been in what, say, a half-dozen or more $hit-holes over the last decade.

If you end up judging, look at it not only from the standpoint of the villagers, but also from the standpoint of the person in charge at the OP.

colonialement,

Mike

[Culpeper]

It works...

I have one just like it. Got it at an air museum near the Grand Canyon.

[carl]

Here is a NYT article trying to explain why things, so far, haven't boiled over in Afghanistan in the wake of the killings.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/15/wo...ed=2&ref=world

The article says it is a combination of religion trumping all, a quick and well spoken apology, fast payment of blood money, the fact that it wasn't part of a military operation and related to that, what seems to be the realization by the Afghans that this was a criminal act by an individual for which there is at least a chance of the death penalty being imposed. Very astute analysis.

[jmm99]

A valid point has been made about slowdowns in the criminal justice system. One is the time from crime to trial. The other is time from trial to final appeal. The two problems are quite different.

Here is an example from 1970 - Son Thang (16 killed in three hootches). The shootings took place on 19 Feb 1970 in the early evening. The initial forensic investigation (by an intel sensor patrol with an S-2 1st Lt. and a corpsman HN1 with camaras, etc.) began by chance in the late morning of 20 Feb.

The Article 32 hearings (on 5 cases) took 9 days, concluding on 23 March 1970, with the 5 Article 32 reports submitted four weeks later in April.

The first CM (and most comparable to this case in factual issues) was that of Pvt. Michael Schwarz, opening Monday, 15 Jun 1970 and closing Sunday, 21 Jun 1970 - members' verdict and sentence was guilty as charged and specified - 16 premeditated murders with a life sentence for each. The CA had declined to seek the death penalty.

The point (for crime to trial) is that it can be done; but it won't be done unless citizens join in pressure groups to require enactment and enforcement of Speedy Trial Acts. Bitching about lawyers and judges won't cut it.

The time from trial to final appeal problem is exemplified by the Ronald Gray case - a 1988 death sentence still unexecuted in 2012. That problem will not be solved easily, but would require a remake of the trial courts and appellate courts. Solutions can be easily presented - which are simple enough to lay out. Much larger amounts of political clout would have to be mustered to enact those solutions.

Regards

Mike

PS Carl: NYT article is very good. In my unscholarly explanation to me, the green book is the "accident" (appearance); its "substance" is God (because the Word of God is inseparable from God and is co-existent and eternal). Cf. RC doctrine of the consecrated Host: the bread is the "accident" (appearance); the "substance" is God.

I'm using Thomist-based systematic theological terms because of my ignorance of Islamic terms. An educated Muslim would provide an explanation with different terms. But, I believe it gets down to this: to a Muslim, desecration of the Koran is an actual, physical insult to God. To an RC, desecration of the Host is an actual, physical insult to God. God cannot be injured, but He can be insulted.

[M-A Lagrange]

Bonjour Mike,

Did not want to upset you when I said I'm a little p#$$@d off by the fact that there was video surveillance.
I believe my question is fully focused on how is that it could happen? The existence of video surveillance, even if they were of no use at the moment of the incident, demonstrate that it is not taking place in some remote unaccessible lost village.
Most of crimes I am reading about take place in areas where there is no one to witness, no technology to record the criminal acts...

So my interrogation, and you did provide tracks to answer it, was rather could this be avoided? But it will be to a court to pride the final answer to that.

Amicalement

Marc-Andre

[Eden]

Here is a NYT article trying to explain why things, so far, haven't boiled over in Afghanistan in the wake of the killings.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/15/wo...ed=2&ref=world

The article says it is a combination of religion trumping all, a quick and well spoken apology, fast payment of blood money, the fact that it wasn't part of a military operation and related to that, what seems to be the realization by the Afghans that this was a criminal act by an individual for which there is at least a chance of the death penalty being imposed. Very astute analysis.

I think there is also the Afghan equivalent of NIMBY. The murder of a few villagers is unremarkable, and for most Afghans those who died were "not in my village, not in my clan, not in my valley, not in my tribe". There is no emotional connection and therefore no outrage. Desecration of the Qu'ran, on the other hand, attacks one of the few things that give most Afghans some meaning in their life. They must react to that act of desecration in order to preserve their concept of self-worth.

[jmm99]

S.Sgt X's lawyer stateside is John Henry Browne (Wiki), who has been talking to the press:

Seattle Times: Lawyer: Accused soldier was reluctant to deploy to Afghanistan (15 Mar 2012, Mike Carter and Hal Bernton)

NYT: Accused G.I. ‘Snapped’ Under Strain, Official Says (15 Mar 2012, ERIC SCHMITT and WILLIAM YARDLEY).

This sentence from him is definitely a classic:

"The government is going to want to blame this on an individual rather than blame it on the war," he said.

Well, duh, Mr Lawyer. That's the way it works when the government prosecutes someone.

Lawfirm Overview and Personal Bio.

Over 250 criminal cases to verdict is serious experience.

To give you an idea of the floor for experience (and other important things), the National Board of Trial Advocacy (a Division of the National Board of Legal Specialty Certification) was the first American Bar Association accredited attorney board certifying agency in the world. Founded in 1977, NBTA offers board certification for Trial Lawyers, Criminal Lawyers, Family Lawyers, Social Security Disability Lawyers.

The certification requirements for the four catagories are at the hyperlinks above.

You all out there who are looking for a lawyer might keep in mind that fewer than 4% of all practicing lawyers are certified by an ABA accredited or state sponsored certification board - and fewer still by NBTA. It's no guarantee, but it's a screen. NBTA Lawyer Finder.

I was certified as a Trial Lawyer - for whatever that's worth. You get a little pin, which I never wore but still have.



Regards

Mike

[tequila]

I think there is also the Afghan equivalent of NIMBY. The murder of a few villagers is unremarkable, and for most Afghans those who died were "not in my village, not in my clan, not in my valley, not in my tribe". There is no emotional connection and therefore no outrage. Desecration of the Qu'ran, on the other hand, attacks one of the few things that give most Afghans some meaning in their life. They must react to that act of desecration in order to preserve their concept of self-worth.

I think this is a very good analysis, with the qualification of course that if every Afghan thought that they absolutely had to react to the Quran burnings to preserve their self worth, there would be a lot more dead Americans right now that there have been.

[scott_i]

Is this 9/11 related? without knowing the background of the soldier in question but it seems he's been in 11 years(joining at the time or close to 9/11)Did this happen because how that may have affected him?Is this delayed "revenge" for that? The hard part for me why so many children?Adults yes ,Adults can be threats if he had shot only Adults I could almost" jam with that" but children, surely the general consensus is children are not threating?Why so many especially since he's a father ,does he have a child related tragedy in his past perhaps 9/11 related? Of course he might just be a complete and utter fruitcake.

[Kevin23]

The identity of this guy has been leaked according to CNN.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/16/world/...html?hpt=hp_t1

[jmm99]

Worth reading is Bob Scales' OpEd in the Washington Post, Too many wars, too few U.S. soldiers (13 Mar 2012), keeping in mind his own qualification:

My sense is that their collective, intimate exposure to the horrors of close combat was far more debilitating than what we experienced.

This of course in no way justifies what happened in Kandahar.

Asserting a lousy war, asserting a lousy branch of service, asserting lousy National Command Authorities - none of those are valid defenses to homicide; and none of them are likely to influence the members of a GCM.

His cup runneth over, however, is simply a fact as both MG (ret.) Scales and Lord Moran (and a plethora of others) point out.

Sometimes, the overflowing cup becomes obvious in time to prevent harm (Ricks and Stars & Stripes).

Other times, no overflowing cup exists; but the picture of a truly evil person emerges - albeit with some symptoms of mental illness (Stars & Stripes and Orange County Register, source based on grand jury transcript).

The stories linked above (threatened serial killings and actual serial killings) broke this week !

Scott: Welcome to SWC. S.Sgt. Bales' service record (and life history) will be dissected. Perhaps, some of your questions will be answered.

Regards

Mike

[carl]

Is this 9/11 related? without knowing the background of the soldier in question but it seems he's been in 11 years(joining at the time or close to 9/11)Did this happen because how that may have affected him?Is this delayed "revenge" for that? The hard part for me why so many children?Adults yes ,Adults can be threats if he had shot only Adults I could almost" jam with that" but children, surely the general consensus is children are not threating?Why so many especially since he's a father ,does he have a child related tragedy in his past perhaps 9/11 related? Of course he might just be a complete and utter fruitcake.

Scott_i: It doesn't matter why. It murdered, mass murdered. There is no jamming with that no matter the age. It murdered people who could not defend themselves, over and over. Then when it was done, the thing ran back to mommy so it could be protected from the wrath of those close to its victims.

Barring any genuine "heard voices" mental illness or a brain tumor or something like that, the thing deserves nothing but contempt. It isn't a human any more.