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Thread: France, incl. terrorism & counter-terrorism (catch all)

  1. #61
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    report just came in over SmartPhone (so unconfirmed) that the French security forces killed one of idiots, and captured the other two. They are reportedly connected to Al-Qaeda in Yemen. (Bad report, one surrendered, others arrested were not the shooters, I think they did shoot someone but unrelated to the incident).

    Excellent cartoons, we should all keep posting. It was good to see the French people form large crowds in Paris holding up signs saying they're not afraid, and that we can still look forward to some more humor.

    Let the spoiled brats cry about it when they don't get their way.
    Last edited by Bill Moore; 01-08-2015 at 04:21 AM.

  2. #62
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    A scrimmage in a Border Station
    A canter down some dark defile
    Two thousand pounds of education
    Drops to a ten-rupee jezail


    http://i.imgur.com/IPT1uLH.jpg

  3. #63
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    I stridently support an absolutist stand on free speech. I just donít live under the delusion that it is somehow natural or eternal...
    http://www.unz.com/gnxp/taboos-again...my-are-normal/

    I collected some of the twitter conversations on my TL in this storify

    https://storify.com/omarali50/terror...-charlie-hebdo

    ..but I do think the blasphemers will win. That certain values were commonplace and ancient in origin does not mean they will not change (also see comment #9 about India in the first post above). Anyway, the future is here, it's just not evenly distributed...it may also be unpleasant, jarring and uncomfortable in ways the old days were not.
    It is going to be a bumpy ride.
    But again, I do think the blasphemers will win. I just think the war will be nastier than it needs to be because both sides underestimate the other. That leads to miscalculations...

  4. #64
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    While the world "cries" that freedom of the press and the individual human right to voice opinions were at the heart of this attack--it was interesting to see what those large "so called western media giants" who should be the leaders in this defense actually did in response vs say the German media who has had a history of Hitler and the GDR.

    The western media did just about anything and everything to either not republish the front pages of the various CH publications and or they simply digitized the covers--and that is what again "freedom of the press"?

    Secondly, the German media stood up and stated if these covers are offensive so what--that is the price of the "freedom of the press" and pointed out that CH satirized every major religion just not only Islam. Then they republished virtually all their covers and undigitized.

    Last year's #CharlieHebdo caricature of #Crimea referendum.They really have an understanding
    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=1&theater … pic.twitter.com/aIDCo3Hv5N

    Well done Berliner Zeitung. Germany shows some balls. Every newspaper should have gone with this. We're not afraid.
    pic.twitter.com/FMfyeyIXm7

    Thirdly--something I have stated over and over here--until one of the largest religions decides to have it's own internal Reformation and the "so called" peaceful elements finally take a stand against their "violent/violence prone brothers" this is never going to end especially since Europe via the Russians is now awash with AK47s/RPGs. Really easy car ride full of weapons to Berlin and onwards to France from Donetsk.

    Fourthly, does anyone else find it interesting that while the loss of 12 individuals brutally gunned down is bad--do we see the global media taking a real interest in the daily killings of Syrian civilians via chemical barrel bombs and relentless air attacks, or the killing of Ukrainian soldiers defending their country from what the western press seems to not want to call it "an active war conducted by Russian troops on Ukrainian soil" or the large number of armed conflicts in Africa.

    Is it that these above-- Ukrainian, Syrian, African and the Shia militia now cleansing Sunni villages is simply to far away and Paris closer --why the disconnect?
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 01-08-2015 at 09:46 AM.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    While the world "cries" that freedom of the press and the individual human right to voice opinions were at the heart of this attack--it was interesting to see what those large "so called western media giants" who should be the leaders in this defense actually did in response vs say the German media who has had a history of Hitler and the GDR.

    The western media did just about anything and everything to either not republish the front pages of the various CH publications and or they simply digitized the covers--and that is what again "freedom of the press"?

    Secondly, the German media stood up and stated if these covers are offensive so what--that is the price of the "freedom of the press" and pointed out that CH satirized every major religion just not only Islam. Then they republished virtually all their covers and undigitized.

    Last year's #CharlieHebdo caricature of #Crimea referendum.They really have an understanding
    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=1&theater … pic.twitter.com/aIDCo3Hv5N

    Well done Berliner Zeitung. Germany shows some balls. Every newspaper should have gone with this. We're not afraid.
    pic.twitter.com/FMfyeyIXm7

    Thirdly--something I have stated over and over here--until one of the largest religions decides to have it's own internal Reformation and the "so called" peaceful elements finally take a stand against their "violent/violence prone brothers" this is never going to end especially since Europe via the Russians is now awash with AK47s/RPGs. Really easy car ride full of weapons to Berlin and onwards to France from Donetsk.

    Fourthly, does anyone else find it interesting that while the loss of 12 individuals brutally gunned down is bad--do we see the global media taking a real interest in the daily killings of Syrian civilians via chemical barrel bombs and relentless air attacks, or the killing of Ukrainian soldiers defending their country from what the western press seems to not want to call it "an active war conducted by Russian troops on Ukrainian soil" or the large number of armed conflicts in Africa.

    Is it that these above-- Ukrainian, Syrian, African and the Shia militia now cleansing Sunni villages is simply to far away and Paris closer --why the disconnect?
    This is the core problem--Islamic Mullahs and Imams must take the initiative and hold open/frank discussions between the peace wing and the war wing of Islam and that is not happening.

    Thus the killing will continue for a long time to come.

    Worrying lack of reports about reactions of French & other Muslim clerics to #CharlieHebdo massacre

  6. #66
    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
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    Outlaw09 posted (in part):
    Worrying lack of reports about reactions of French & other Muslim clerics to #CharlieHebdo massacre
    I have seen on Twitter several photos, notably of Muslim leaders os the leading mosque in Paris; a few Tweets - which appear to be by French Muslims - and one from Tariq Ramadan, the Muslim intellectual, IIRC with French nationality and resident @ Oxford University. He tweeted yesterday this:



    Their reaction maybe affected by the fact one of the dead police officers was a Muslim, Ahmed Merabet RIP (assigned to the local beat)

    davidbfpo

  7. #67
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    There is still much speculative media reporting on the suspects for the attack yesterday. Would the suspect(s) really leave behind their official ID card? Or could that be a false clue?

    Plus seemingly "out of the woodwork" a man with an armoured vest and an automatic rifle is involved in a shooting at a Paris Metro station, where one policewoman was killed and a civilian seriously injured.

    Shashank Joshi has a useful summary:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...r-in-2015.html
    davidbfpo

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidbfpo View Post
    Outlaw09 posted (in part):

    I have seen on Twitter several photos, notably of Muslim leaders os the leading mosque in Paris; a few Tweets - which appear to be by French Muslims - and one from Tariq Ramadan, the Muslim intellectual, IIRC with French nationality and resident @ Oxford University. He tweeted yesterday this:



    Their reaction maybe affected by the fact one of the dead police officers was a Muslim, Ahmed Merabet RIP (assigned to the local beat)

    Nothing though out of the centers for Islamic Law and Studies ie the KSA, Iran and the rest of the ME--and the Russian Federation of Mufti's basically blamed the CH yesterday.

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    Even when a Muslim in this case the current Egyptian leader attempted this month to discuss making a move at an even a "mini Reformation" inside Islam it gets torn apart from multiple different Islamic players and until that Reformation takes place we will sadly still see the killing continuing until a true Reformation places a brake on the "war faction of Islam".

    http://news.yahoo.com/egypts-leader-...060108959.html

  10. #70
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    The victim of the shooting this morning, after a minor road traffic accident; a local police officer.
    davidbfpo

  11. #71
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    Default Stop asking Muslims to condemn terrorism

    Part of Vox.com's headline, in full it is 'Stop asking Muslims to condemn terrorism. It's bigoted and Islamophobic'. Note the article was written before the Paris attack, on December 15th 2014:http://www.vox.com/2014/12/15/739422...-charlie-hebdo

    It ends with:
    We should treat people like the Charlie Hebdo attackers as what they are: monsters who kill both for the simple sake of killing and to provoke exactly the sort of religious conflict that mosque-attackers are indulging. And we should treat Muslims as what they are: normal people who of course reject terrorism, rather than as a lesser form of humanity that is expected to denounce violence every time it happens.
    davidbfpo

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidbfpo View Post
    Part of Vox.com's headline, in full it is 'Stop asking Muslims to condemn terrorism. It's bigoted and Islamophobic'. Note the article was written before the Paris attack, on December 15th 2014:http://www.vox.com/2014/12/15/739422...-charlie-hebdo

    It ends with:
    But when the killers are in fact Islamists and shout the standard jihadi slogans at the scene of the killings then the "peace wing" of Islam should then stand up and openly condemn the "war wing" as the "war wing" pushes a negative Islam image that in effects paints the "peace wing" in the same color ie all Muslims are "terrorists".

    But we still have not heard from the centers of the Sunni Islamic Law and Studies-ie Egypt, KSA and Iran.

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    Appears the Russians know something we do not?

    Major Russian TV network says US intelligence carried out the Charlie Hebdo attack

    http://www.vox.com/2015/1/8/7514439/...bdo-russia-cia Ö

  14. #74
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    Both Iran and Saudi Arabia have officially condemned the attack, as has Al-Azhar in Egypt. They are all sincere in their own way. Saudi Arabia is now scared witless of free-lance Jihadis and no longer supports them the way it did in the good old days of the Afghan Jihad and even (mostly via private donors) in the Kashmir Jihad. Iran is closer to being a modern country with a real culture and history and does not appreciate chaos. It will use terrorists the way the US or the USSR may use them, as instruments of policy. Not as free-lance enforcers of their own notion of Islamic purity (and certainly not when they are anti-Shia fanatics).
    Al-Azhar wants a more moderate version of Islamism. Not exactly tolerant or multiculti in the modern fashion, but not this crap either.
    On the other hand, some Muslims have also been quick to approve of this slaughter and a large number (anecdotally, I would say a majority) do feel that blasphemy is a huge big deal and Charlie Hebdo certainly deserved some punishment, though probably not in this fashion.
    See the links in my storify for more:
    https://storify.com/omarali50/terror...-charlie-hebdo

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    Appears that one Russian claims to know something we do not?

    Fixed that for ya.
    A scrimmage in a Border Station
    A canter down some dark defile
    Two thousand pounds of education
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  16. #76
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    Here is an interesting response (via Facebook, BBC Daily Politics & Sunday Politics).
    An interview with Murray, Nawaz and Powell.

    https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v...e=news_central
    Nothing that results in human progress is achieved with unanimous consent. (Christopher Columbus)

    All great truth passes through three stages: first it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
    (Arthur Schopenhauer)

    ONWARD

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by omarali50 View Post
    Both Iran and Saudi Arabia have officially condemned the attack, as has Al-Azhar in Egypt. They are all sincere in their own way. Saudi Arabia is now scared witless of free-lance Jihadis and no longer supports them the way it did in the good old days of the Afghan Jihad and even (mostly via private donors) in the Kashmir Jihad. Iran is closer to being a modern country with a real culture and history and does not appreciate chaos. It will use terrorists the way the US or the USSR may use them, as instruments of policy. Not as free-lance enforcers of their own notion of Islamic purity (and certainly not when they are anti-Shia fanatics).
    Al-Azhar wants a more moderate version of Islamism. Not exactly tolerant or multiculti in the modern fashion, but not this crap either.
    On the other hand, some Muslims have also been quick to approve of this slaughter and a large number (anecdotally, I would say a majority) do feel that blasphemy is a huge big deal and Charlie Hebdo certainly deserved some punishment, though probably not in this fashion.
    See the links in my storify for more:
    https://storify.com/omarali50/terror...-charlie-hebdo
    But in the end they still have not openly condemned the "war wing" as that would take a really long long time to formally change the current Islam interpretations and as we have seen in the recent Egyptian attempts in the end will not fly.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    But in the end they still have not openly condemned the "war wing" as that would take a really long long time to formally change the current Islam interpretations and as we have seen in the recent Egyptian attempts in the end will not fly.
    PR comments out of the ME leadership mean nothing if not backed up by comments from the Islamic higher learning centers in those countries---but since they are all basically conservative in nature and I and many others will be waiting until we are dead to see a Reformation coming out these centers.

    Why---it is the way the Sunni and Shia global communities are built relying on local Imams and Mullah's for their interpretation of the Koran and supporting documents and many of them are not even well educated--and until he hear in their Friday prayers all across their global communities that the peace wing is totally feed up with the war wing---nothing will change.

    This is not typical for the other great religions where they have a more of a centralized center for the entire religion.

    Do agree though that a "silent majority" of Muslims "felt" that CH should be punished in some form--the other religions ie took their critique in stride and complained openly or in the case of Rome sued them and lost.
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 01-09-2015 at 08:10 AM.

  19. #79
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    No one could have even thought up this satire----jihadists who love creating propaganda killing journalists/cartoonists trapped now in a printing company.

    An the circle comes full circle.

  20. #80
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    Nabila Ramdani, a French-Algerian journalist, provides some context for the events - including one episode I expect France would prefer be forgotten:
    During one notorious atrocity in 1961, up to 200 Algerians were slaughtered around national monuments, including the Eiffel Tower and Notre Dame cathedral. Many were tossed into the Seine from some of the most beautiful bridges in the world and left to drown.
    Citing the imam of the mosque in Drancy... spoke up for many when he said of the killers:
    They have sold their souls to hell. This is not freedom. This is not Islam and I hope the French will come out united at the end of this.
    Link:http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...odshed-muslims
    davidbfpo

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