Copy of Marine Corps Gazette July 1971

[slapout9]

After reading, I'd add a few points:

1-Ken,as usual your points are valid and well taken...the SPIW came in at around 30 poundsand that was going to be the basic infantry weapon,not so good. But it did lead to the M-203 which turned out to be a winner and some of his other ideals did bear fruit.

2-Somewhere through the years we have lost the Systems Analysis process of analyzing if we should automate(I guess they call it digitizing today) the process/weapon/equipment/etc. in the first place or just leave it alone.

3-He did not go deep enough into his System Analysis, but I think he would have or maybe he did and I just haven't read it yet. The concept of Platoon,Company,etc. are all obsolete, his idea of concentrating on FUNCTION is dead on. Instead of a platoon we should have a 50 man Search and Attack system and 150 man, 250, etc. it becomes modular but more descriptive of the battlefield function, easier to understand what you are building or organizing based upon the Mission.

[gute]

1-Ken,as usual your points are valid and well taken...the SPIW came in at around 30 poundsand that was going to be the basic infantry weapon,not so good. But it did lead to the M-203 which turned out to be a winner and some of his other ideals did bear fruit.

2-Somewhere through the years we have lost the Systems Analysis process of analyzing if we should automate(I guess they call it digitizing today) the process/weapon/equipment/etc. in the first place or just leave it alone.

3-He did not go deep enough into his System Analysis, but I think he would have or maybe he did and I just haven't read it yet. The concept of Platoon,Company,etc. are all obsolete, his idea of concentrating on FUNCTION is dead on. Instead of a platoon we should have a 50 man Search and Attack system and 150 man, 250, etc. it becomes modular but more descriptive of the battlefield function, easier to understand what you are building or organizing based upon the Mission.

I like your concept of function and systems, but can you expand on what your battalion would look like?

[slapout9]

I like your concept of function and systems, but can you expand on what your battalion would look like?

Sure, the Marine Corps is the only force that has a Commandant for the highest ranking officer in charge. I always thought that was strange title so being the Airborne Investigator that I am, I had to find out where did that name come from and "what's up with that name."


As near as I can tell during the Boer War the basic fighting unit was a COMMANDO(none of that platoon or company stuff) and it was lead by a COMMANDANT. They write it as Kommandant. Also a Commando could expand and contract based upon the need and or the enemy...perfect Systems Thinking....adaption to the enemy system based on the environmental system you are operating in. So instead of platoons and companies and battalions you need Commandos sized to the mission need. Dosen't get any better than that.

So who is running the Marines now? Send this to him so he can get this stuff squared away.With all the budget cuts coming the Marines are going to need a big MoJo rebuild.

I am re-reading the article for the third time there are a few other jewels in there that I want to talk about.

[Kiwigrunt]

Sure, the Marine Corps is the only force that has a Commandant for the highest ranking officer in charge. I always thought that was strange title so being the Airborne Investigator that I am, I had to find out where did that name come from and "what's up with that name."


As near as I can tell during the Boer War the basic fighting unit was a COMMANDO(none of that platoon or company stuff) and it was lead by a COMMANDANT. They write it as Kommandant. Also a Commando could expand and contract based upon the need and or the enemy...perfect Systems Thinking....adaption to the enemy system based on the environmental system you are operating in. So instead of platoons and companies and battalions you need Commandos sized to the mission need. Dosen't get any better than that.

I think it may originally be a French word. In Dutch, ‘commandant’ translates as commander. I believe that in the South African army the rank of major does not exist. A company commander is a commandant. JMA may confirm or correct me on this. For the UK marines a commando is the equivalent of a battalion.

The USMC may well have (just guessing here) picked the word up from the Dutch or Spanish Marine Corps, which are among the oldest in the world.

[gute]

IMO the IBCT and SBCT cav squadrons are a good starting place. The IBCT cav squadron has the mix of scouts and infantry, and the SBCT has the sensor troop assigned to the squadron (I think). Mix the two together, add an aviation troop, FSC and area fires and IMO you have an organization along the lines of what the author described. The assault formation could be an attached rifle company or an infantry battalion.

Reversing the ratio of cav squadrons to infantry battalions in some of the BCTs might be an option.

[slapout9]

IMO the IBCT and SBCT cav squadrons are a good starting place. The IBCT cav squadron has the mix of scouts and infantry, and the SBCT has the sensor troop assigned to the squadron (I think). Mix the two together, add an aviation troop, FSC and area fires and IMO you have an organization along the lines of what the author described. The assault formation could be an attached rifle company or an infantry battalion.

Reversing the ratio of cav squadrons to infantry battalions in some of the BCTs might be an option.

Can not stay long to day. That is a great idea gute..... Commando units in the Boer War were pretty much what we would call Cavalry units in the USA but what makes that method of organization useful IMO was that there was no set size of the unit, the size was based on the operating environment. The units could be rather small or they could be rather large. Gotta go for now.

[gute]

Can not stay long to day. That is a great idea gute..... Commando units in the Boer War were pretty much what we would call Cavalry units in the USA but what makes that method of organization useful IMO was that there was no set size of the unit, the size was based on the operating environment. The units could be rather small or they could be rather large. Gotta go for now.

I just heard Ken say "METT-TC".

[gute]

Can not stay long to day. That is a great idea gute..... Commando units in the Boer War were pretty much what we would call Cavalry units in the USA but what makes that method of organization useful IMO was that there was no set size of the unit, the size was based on the operating environment. The units could be rather small or they could be rather large. Gotta go for now.

Call the organization a troop - it has a Hqs element, infantry platoon, scout platoon and heavy weapons platoon (based on the units of the IBCT). This troop can opertate as a two-platoon company or a four section search and attack troop. The organization can operate mounted and dismounted, arms room concept for support weapons M240, M320, M224, M2, MK19, Javelin, TOW, etc. The battalion or "battle group" would have 3-5 of these troops plus the STA company, FA battery, aviation company and support company. The troops would be capable of C2 over 1-2 more platoons/sections depending on METT-TC.

[JMA]

I believe that in the South African army the rank of major does not exist. A company commander is a commandant. JMA may confirm or correct me on this.

In the SANDF (as it was in the old SADF) the rank of commandant is used in lieu of Lt Col.

[gute]

Sure, the Marine Corps is the only force that has a Commandant for the highest ranking officer in charge. I always thought that was strange title so being the Airborne Investigator that I am, I had to find out where did that name come from and "what's up with that name."


As near as I can tell during the Boer War the basic fighting unit was a COMMANDO(none of that platoon or company stuff) and it was lead by a COMMANDANT. They write it as Kommandant. Also a Commando could expand and contract based upon the need and or the enemy...perfect Systems Thinking....adaption to the enemy system based on the environmental system you are operating in. So instead of platoons and companies and battalions you need Commandos sized to the mission need. Dosen't get any better than that.

So who is running the Marines now? Send this to him so he can get this stuff squared away.With all the budget cuts coming the Marines are going to need a big MoJo rebuild.

I am re-reading the article for the third time there are a few other jewels in there that I want to talk about.

,

You might be right about the origins for our use, but it may been chosen based on British tradition of a commandant being an administrative rank. According to Wikipedia, Colonel Commandants would oversee British military academies. The Marine Commandant is an administrative position, but one that requires prestige. I'm glad my Corps (yes, it is mine) refers to the commandant as just commandant and not "General Commandant" - that would be dorky.