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  1. #1
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    Default India's military (catch all)

    Moderator's Note

    This thread has been renamed India's military (catch all) and a small number of threads have been merged in (ends).


    But not for the best of reasons.

    http://www.brownpundits.com/the-indi...t-in-the-news/

    excerpts:
    "...Optimists must have hoped that Indian civilian traditions will improve faster than British-Indian military traditions decay and one day the trends will meet happily in the positive region of the graph. So how is that going?
    ...I would say the odds are in favor of the fuss blowing over and settling down. And life (and India) will go on. But for the sake of argument, let us assume this is a symptom of serious internal decay and not just one chief and one defense minister who don’t know what an unholy mess they are making here (and one weak PM who cannot seem to get it under control). What if this gets worse?
    Indians can comment on what it means for them, but for Pakistanis, it will not be good news...
    Last edited by davidbfpo; 06-16-2015 at 12:13 PM. Reason: Fix quote and add Mods note

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    Governance, please

    With the Hon’ble PM and the Hon’ble RM, both very good men, I share Lord Halifax’s sneeringly patrician remark: “State craft is a cruel business, good nature is a bungler at it”.

    Believe me, my good sirs, the nation is weary of your “good nature,” we crave for “good governance.” Can you now, please, for a change do just that?

    http://www.indianexpress.com/news/go...lease/929622/0

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    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
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    Default To Leave Or Not To Leave – Controversy of Indian Army Chief Retirement

    A detailed background essay by SWC contributor Hamid Hussain is attached.
    Attached Files Attached Files
    davidbfpo

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    Quite a find!

    Thanks.

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    Ray,

    As one of our Indian members I hope you can add your comments!

    Reading Hamid's essay I was reminded of how the British Army conducted itself in the early years of Queen Victoria.
    davidbfpo

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    Default Hamid adds some points

    In response to comments - made by others visiting SWC - a short amendment is attached.
    Attached Files Attached Files
    davidbfpo

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    Default Indian Army’s unpaid spy dies in oblivion

    Indian Army’s unpaid spy dies in oblivion
    British-born Sydney Wignall discovered the secrets of China’s expansion across Tibet to the borders of India and Nepal


    http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/n...p?newsid=18790
    We salute these bravehearts!

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    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
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    Default Operation Blue Star

    Hamid Hussain, a US-based analyst and historian, who contributes sometimes here and on SWJ, has written a long review paper on this operation. I had forgotten how divisive this action was within the Indian Army and the slim bios of some will surprise you.

    He opens with:
    The 5th June is the thirty year anniversary of the Indian army operation to clear militants from the Sikh religion’s holiest temple in Amritsar. This was the culmination of chain of events simmering for several years. In late 1970s, conflict between center and Punjab, internal power struggle among Sikh political elite, poor economic conditions of rural Punjab and assertion of Nirankaris (a sect of Sikhism considered heretic by orthodox Sikhs) resulted in rapid escalation of violence in Punjab. In early 1980s, Sikh agitation took an ugly turn and a group of militant Sikhs under the leadership of a charismatic leader Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale upped the ante. In December 1983, fearing arrest, Bhindranwala with few hundred armed supporters moved into the Golden Temple complex. Armed militants occupied many buildings of the Golden temple complex. Many wanted militants found refuge in the temple and in April 1983, in an audacious move militants shot dead a police Deputy Inspector General (DIG) Avtar Singh Atwal inside the temple. Several police officers including Inspector Bicchu Ram and Deputy Superintendent Police (DSP) Gurbachan Singh were also assassinated by militants. In June 1984, Indian government decided to send troops to the Golden Temple complex to clear it out of militants. After a bloody fight, temple was cleared resulting in heavy casualties.
    The attachment is available via PM, being fourteen pages it is too large to add here.

    For those who prefer the visual image:
    Kanwar Sandhu’s documentary about Operation Blue Star released in 2013 is a detailed analysis of the operation. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhO5BRsTfl8
    davidbfpo

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    The full text is also posted on our blog (brownpundits.com)

    http://brownpundits.blogspot.com/201...-bluestar.html

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    As reported in 'The Indian Express' on May 8 by Consulting Editor Seema Chishti, the book goes on to say: "It is inconceiveable that they could have done so without Indira Gandhi's consent. Sanjay and Zail Singh believed that by advocating extremist causes the young preacher would embarrass the Akali Dal. Precisely, the reverse happened. Bhindranwale soon turned into a classic Frankenstein's monster and embarked upon devouring his creators."

    "Dirty politics and the use of religion for political ends clearly boomeranged on the Akali and Congress leadership with disastrous consequences for the Sikh community and the Indian state" the book says commenting on the situation in the aftermath of the Operation Blue Star.

    Noting that Congress emerged as the single largest party in the state assembly in the 1972 elections and formed a government headed by Zail Singh, the book says, "by introducing a religious tone to Punjab politics, Giani succeeded to a great extent in weakening the Akalis. But the result--growing communalisation of provincial politics—was disastrous."

    The book notes that Zail Singh organised one of the biggest religious processions "in order to secure Sikh votes for Congress".
    http://archive.indianexpress.com/new...s-book/797608/
    The whole mess of Punjab was the result of political oneupmanship that went out of control.

    May also see this for a more detailed summary of the issues that led to Op Bluestar:

    http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/public...falsehood4.htm
    Last edited by Ray; 06-05-2014 at 08:57 AM.

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    The widely respcted, former BBC India correspondent, Mark Tully gives his own memories of the time and reflects on what has happened since:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-disaster.html
    davidbfpo

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    Several people have been injured after Sikh groups brandishing swords clashed at India's Golden Temple as special prayers were held to mark the deadly military offensive there in 1984.

    Reports said the fight at Sikhism's holiest shrine was over who would speak first at the ceremony and that a scuffle broke out over a microphone.

    Footage showed men running down temple steps lashing out with their swords.

    Reports said at least three people had been taken to hospital with injuries.
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-27727812

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidbfpo View Post
    The widely respcted, former BBC India correspondent, Mark Tully gives his own memories of the time and reflects on what has happened since:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-disaster.html
    Ah Sir Mark!

    Lord Haw Haw.
    Last edited by Ray; 06-07-2014 at 11:11 AM.

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    Default India Grounds Most of Original Arjun Tanks

    NEW DELHI — Most of India's homemade Arjun Mark-1 battle tank fleet has been grounded because of technical snags and lack of imported components, an Indian Army official said.

    "Nearly 75 percent of the 124 tanks with the Army are grounded," the official added.

    The Army has inducted 124 Arjun Mark-1 tanks developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and produced by state-owned Heavy Vehicles Factory at Avadi in southern India. Nearly 55 percent of the value of the tank is imported components and those supplies have dried up, the official said.

    The Army official did not give details of the technical snags but said there are more than 90 issues.
    http://www.defensenews.com/story/def...drdo/70963382/
    A scrimmage in a Border Station
    A canter down some dark defile
    Two thousand pounds of education
    Drops to a ten-rupee jezail


    http://i.imgur.com/IPT1uLH.jpg

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    Nothing surprising here. This is army doing whatever it can to scuttle further orders, to the extent that DRDO installed a black box to prevent army from sabotaging trials.

    Arjun for all it's notoriety is not a bad machine. Comparative trails with T-90 showed Arjun can soundly beat T-90 in most performance parameters despite the odds stacked against it.

    Below is a report by Comptroller and Auditor-General of India
    (http://en.wikipedia.org wiki/Comptroller_and_Auditor_General_of_India).

    http://i.imgur.com/6LE0Qcf.png

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    Default Indian SOF strike across border into Burma

    Last week in an unusual move Indian para-commandos attacked at least one Indian rebel camp, India rarely uses "hot pursuit". One wonders how Islamabad views this, especially if it considers using LeT again to attack India (shades of Mumbai).

    The main thread on Indian insurgencies details recent heavy losses from rebel attacks:http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/...ead.php?t=2248

    Link to a BBC news report:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-33074773

    Ret'd Major-General Singh said:
    India has the capability for surgical strikes across our borders. The political will was missing so far...That may not be the case any more.
    From a BBC analyst's commentary:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-33074776
    Last edited by davidbfpo; 06-23-2015 at 01:13 PM. Reason: Was in a stand alone thread now merged
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    Pakistani leaders and social media did get the message, and went ballistic in response. The general theme was "Pakistan is not Myanmar". That useless windbag and Bush's old friend, Pervez Musharraf, led the way as usual with bombastic statements about being willing to use nuclear weapons if India tried any "adventurism" (he actually said "we do not have these weapons for use as fireworks on Shab e barat", a night when some illumination and fireworks may happen in Pakistan).
    http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...w/47680996.cms

    I do not keep up with them, but it is possible that some members of the Anatol Lieven school of Pakistan-analysis may also have stepped in to warn about the dangers posed by Modi's newfound aggressiveness.

    Personally, I dont think any clash is imminent. The army has India-specific terrrorists on a short leash (otherwise they would have struck again since Mumbai) and "good GHQ" is not in the mood for any real confrontation with India. "Bad GHQ" may try something if they feel the good guys are about to make a serious dent in the Jihadi apparatus, but apparently that red line has not been crossed...yet.
    Last edited by davidbfpo; 06-23-2015 at 01:13 PM. Reason: Was in a stand alone thread now merged

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    Christine Fair (who was once labeled Christine Unfair by Hindutva fanatics because she said something that Pakistani PR people used against India) has an article on this topic:

    http://warontherocks.com/2015/06/fal.../?singlepage=1

    Her conclusion:

    In the wake of India’s hot pursuit of militants into Myanmar, Pakistan has raised numerous alarms about Indian aggression. It has issued various warnings that no such Indian incursion into Pakistan will be tolerated. As often happens in such circumstances, the international media has raised the tocsin of the potential for yet another “Indo-Pakistan” clash. Unfortunately, much of this coverage of the so-called India-Pakistan conflict is deeply problematic in that writers, perhaps with good intentions, seek to impose a false equivalence on both nations’ conduct, giving the impression that India and Pakistan contribute equally to the fraught situation that currently exists.
    This is dangerously untrue and feeds into a policy-process that has failed to come to terms with the most serious problem in South Asia: Pakistan. Such coverage also rewards Pakistan for its malfeasance by attributing blame to India in equal share and thus legitimizing Pakistan’s ill-found grievances. The only parties who benefit from such an understanding of the “Indo-Pakistan” dispute are the Pakistan military and its terrorist proxies. One such article was published by the Washington Post on June 11 by Tim Craig and Annie Gowen. In this essay, I seek to provide the necessary historical and empirical background that is required to make sense of the current situation. In doing so I directly challenge such writers as Craig and Gowen, among others, to devote more time to understanding the conflict dynamics before they inadvertently obfuscate the situation more than they illuminate it.
    Needless to say, this will "stoke tension" in South Asia..or at least in the Anatol Lieven school of analytics. I look forward to a healthy sparring match
    Last edited by davidbfpo; 06-23-2015 at 01:13 PM. Reason: fix quote. Was in a stand alone thread now merged

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    Default A 10% raid

    A commentary 'Was India's special-forces raid into Myanmar a signal to China and Pakistan?' by Shashank Joshi, of RUSI (London), via the Australian Lowy Institute:http://www.lowyinterpreter.org/post/...Pakistan.aspx?

    With my emphasis:
    In their book on the subject, retired Lieutenant General PC Katoch and journalist Saikat Datta note that India has over 20,000 special forces but 'one tenth' of US capabilities, as a result of inadequate officer numbers, training, intelligence, language skills, air support, and a lack of centralised command. In another recent paper, George Perkovich and Toby Dalton cite Indian experts, including retired officials, who acknowledge that 'India does not now have the capability to combine special operations in Pakistan with precision air support', notwithstanding highly localised raids across the Line of Control.
    davidbfpo

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    @omarali50,
    Christine Fair (who was once labeled Christine Unfair by Hindutva fanatics because she said something that Pakistani PR people used against India) has an article on this topic:
    Hindutvawadis are nice that way. If only you knew them better.

    Frankly, most Pakistani commenters would have had slept better at night had Dr. Fair mentioned Mukti Bahini, RAW and 1971. So while I agree with it almost completely I also think this was a biased piece.

    Clubbing India together with Pakistan does give a lot of leverage to "belligerent" elements. Mr. Ali, I have a few queries if you care to answer.

    1) Why did Pakistani media consistently missed the part where firing on LOC from their side "coincidentally" matched with Kashmir elections and Samba and Kathua attacks but kept repeating the ISPR line of India creating distractions wrt Zarb-e-azb. This includes journalists like Najam Sethi who do not tow the Army's official line in general.

    2) What part do you think army has played in the rise of Imran Khan and his future? While some say that Imran Khan is army's Plan B, Imran on record keeps or at least kept harping about the dangers that army bring by military operations across the country.

    ..............................................

    https://twitter.com/majorlyp/status/608710075704860672

    Something, most of us on this side of the border were thinking. You may find this person amusing, maybe.

    As for Mushy, I think people are being too hard on him. From once the only world leader who carried a personal side arm, Mushy has turned into a senile old man whose every rants begins with the ritualistic "We are not ________. We are a nuclear power. India cannot do that to us"

    Do Pakistanis ponder over the fact that would have happened had it been Nawaz as PM post 9/11?
    Last edited by davidbfpo; 06-23-2015 at 01:14 PM. Reason: word change. Was in a stand alone thread now merged

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