Women in Military Service & Combat (not just USA)

[120mm]

I agree. The problem isn't the commissioning source/ethnic background/gender, it's the lack of solid leadership, doing the right thing by either developing that individual, holding them accountable, and when necessary, seeing they are booted out of the Army.

So, are you still around Leavenworth?

And I personally really resent the Sanchez and others' comment about the competence level of his subordinates. During the train-up, his guys sucked, but by the time the war kicked off and after, they had weeded out the "duds" and had some pretty competent individuals working for him. Who lacked direction from him, obtw....

[BayonetBrant]

I think there is a lot more "personality" at play here than "gender" necessarily. But "gender" is more immediately discernable, and therefore becomes a proxy for having a multitude of personality traits ascribed to someone until they are later confirmed/denied.

An example would be the B.C. described above. Definitely a personality issue, and likely would not cut it in the combat arms.

But I've have a variety of women serve with tank battalions - as medics, S1 personnel, 77F's, etc - and mesh with the team just fine. It was their personality that allowed them to blend in. Someone above mentioned the wife dropping an f-bomb in front of the Marines, and suddenly everyone calmed down. That's a personality that can blend in with the Marines.

Unfortunately, there's no good, objective way to quantify the 'personality' issue such that it could be used as an acceptable discriminator for integrating women more closely into the combat arms, or for placing certain men into mixed-gender situations. Without that objective measure, we're back to arguing about XX vs XY and spinning our wheels.

[120mm]

I think there is a lot more "personality" at play here than "gender" necessarily. But "gender" is more immediately discernable, and therefore becomes a proxy for having a multitude of personality traits ascribed to someone until they are later confirmed/denied.

An example would be the B.C. described above. Definitely a personality issue, and likely would not cut it in the combat arms.

But I've have a variety of women serve with tank battalions - as medics, S1 personnel, 77F's, etc - and mesh with the team just fine. It was their personality that allowed them to blend in. Someone above mentioned the wife dropping an f-bomb in front of the Marines, and suddenly everyone calmed down. That's a personality that can blend in with the Marines.

Unfortunately, there's no good, objective way to quantify the 'personality' issue such that it could be used as an acceptable discriminator for integrating women more closely into the combat arms, or for placing certain men into mixed-gender situations. Without that objective measure, we're back to arguing about XX vs XY and spinning our wheels.

I think you're missing my point: The problem isn't that this individual has problems, and to be sure, "personality" is part of the issue, it is that her basic incompetence has been given a pass because of her gender and/or the color of her skin.

The typical army officer is extremely reluctant to "do the right thing" when confronted with a "dud" who happens to belong to a protected group. I guaran-freaking-tee you that being a member of that protected group gives them a potential lever to use against leaders who don't have their stuff wired extremely tight.

Having said that, non-dud women and ethnic minorities have a disadvantage, in that they are often excluded from "good ole boy" activities. My best friend, and best man at my wedding, is a brilliant leader whose ethnic identity is African-American, and he got completely hosed over by the system as currently constituted, for example. But he's not the kind of guy who'd use his ethnic makeup to defend himself. I work with some female former officers who've experienced similar things.

Really good leaders who DO have their stuff wired tight are able to get protected class duds out of the army. It just takes a little more work, in my experience.

[Jedburgh]

PBS Independent Lens: Lioness

LIONESS profiles five women who saw action in Iraq’s Sunni Triangle during 2003 and 2004. As members of the U.S. Army’s 1st Engineer Battalion, Shannon Morgan, Rebecca Nava, Kate Pendry Guttormsen, Anastasia Breslow and Ranie Ruthig were sent to Iraq to provide supplies and logistical support to their male colleagues. Not trained for combat duty, the women unexpectedly became involved with fighting in the streets of Ramadi.

Told through interviews, journal excerpts and archival footage, LIONESS offers a portrait of five soldiers who are also wives, mothers and daughters, and who have long coped with the demands of military life, especially the sacrifices involved in leaving behind spouses and young children. These combat-tested women exemplify what it means to be a good soldier, and illustrate the complicated role that women play in direct war combat. Reflecting on their recent deployment, the Lionesses display strength and candor, bridging the gap between the perception and the reality of the essential role women are playing in Iraq.

[120mm]

Not trained for combat duty, the women unexpectedly became involved with fighting in the streets of Ramadi.

I've not read the article yet, (but will, I promise) but the above quote deeply offends my sensibilities. I don't think post-2004, you can use this as an excuse anymore. Everyone, as far as I know, is trained for combat duty. Those that are not, are either not motivated to pay attention, or are suffering from epic poor leadership in their CoC.

[reed11b]

Most of the problems with "not trained for combat" as I understand it, had little to do with combat training but failure to understand and be able to interoperate with the marines which they had been attached too. Many Army Infantry soldiers could have had the same problem. There is alot of sensationalism in the story that I take with a grain of salt, but I feel there is a point to saying that it is unfair to state that women are "not in combat roles" and expect them to take combat training with the same seriousness as the male soldiers. Heck, you should have seen the male medical support company soldiers I was trying to help train for the A-stanin 05-06. Pretty sorry bunch when it came to combat skills. This was because they convinced themselves they would never be under fire in a support battalion. They were wrong.
Reed