OEF has it been worth the human cost?

[Entropy]

AmericanPride,

Such judgements are inherently subjective and therefore impossible to quantify. IMO, it is both foolish and distasteful (to use a polite word) to use accounting methods to add up KIA in order to determine if it was worth it or not. That's just my opinion - this is a difficult and sensitive subject and everyone has the right to deal with it on their own terms.

[AmericanPride]

Such judgements are inherently subjective and therefore impossible to quantify.

I agree, which is why I raised those questions. It doesn't make a difference if one life was lost or 10,000 lives since we cannot say that one life is worth any more (or less) than another; so there is no objective way to compare the lives lost with the outcome of the conflict. Even using the most basic rubric of war (did we win or not?) is problematic. I am only pointing out that unless we forgo our humanity, there is no objective method available to justify the loss of human life in wartime.

this is a difficult and sensitive subject and everyone has the right to deal with it on their own terms.

I agree. It saddens me to think of the ones I did know, some closer than others, who were either killed or experienced the loss of a friend or soldier, as well as those who's standard of living was destroyed by the physical and mental toll of conflict. I think about it everyday. How can I, as an American and former Army officer, not think of this human cost and find some way to justify it? This is an answer, I think, that everyone must personally answer.

[J Wolfsberger]

Ken,

I think you covered it as succinctly and effectively as possible.

What deeply concerns me today is this "Atrocities Prevention Board" and all the talk of "Responsibility To Protect." I have a fear, that seems very reasonable, that this will transform into an open ended justification to go "... in somewhere we are not wanted (or, often, needed...) and setting up fire bases or FOBs with large sandbag or Hesco RPG magnets from which we foray briefly (and ineptly, more often than not...) and throw money about with little focused thought ..." And do so anytime the international community decides to isolate a particular bad guy for some random reason.

I'd love to hear someone explain why kicking out Saddam was the height of evil and folly, but not kicking out Assad or Qaddafi is/would have been the height of evil and folly. The only apparent criteria seems to have been the party controlling the Whitehouse, which is politically stupid and morally bankrupt. Until there's a satisfactory explanation of that distinction, then I'll stay opposed to any future intervention. The lives of US and allied troops are worth more than that.

[davidbfpo]

John,

I have just updated the thread of atrocities, genocide and maybe R2P:http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/...?t=5598&page=2

If others want to purse those themes please post on that thread.

[Ken White]

I'd love to hear someone explain why kicking out Saddam was the height of evil and folly, but not kicking out Assad or Qaddafi is/would have been the height of evil and folly. The only apparent criteria seems to have been the party controlling the Whitehouse, which is politically stupid and morally bankrupt. Until there's a satisfactory explanation of that distinction, then I'll stay opposed to any future intervention. The lives of US and allied troops are worth more than that.

Sadly correct...

[JMA]

I'd love to hear someone explain why kicking out Saddam was the height of evil and folly, but not kicking out Assad or Qaddafi is/would have been the height of evil and folly. The only apparent criteria seems to have been the party controlling the Whitehouse, which is politically stupid and morally bankrupt. Until there's a satisfactory explanation of that distinction, then I'll stay opposed to any future intervention. The lives of US and allied troops are worth more than that.

Maybe the penny is finally dropping?

Is there anyone other than USians who think the US political system of any value?

[Firn]

Maybe the penny is finally dropping?

Is there anyone other than USians who think the US political system of any value?

Despite of its shortfalls, I do. Good old Albert would say all is relative and Winston might have a talk about democracy....

[tequila]

Is there anyone other than USians who think the US political system of any value?

Compared to who? The enlightened denizens of this board? The people running the UK, the EU, Australia? Really?

I'd love to hear someone explain why kicking out Saddam was the height of evil and folly, but not kicking out Assad or Qaddafi is/would have been the height of evil and folly. The only apparent criteria seems to have been the party controlling the Whitehouse, which is politically stupid and morally bankrupt. Until there's a satisfactory explanation of that distinction, then I'll stay opposed to any future intervention. The lives of US and allied troops are worth more than that.

Not going to judge evil - I'll leave that to all those stellar moral exemplars out there. But in terms of pure folly - are you seriously arguing that the invasion and occupation of Iraq had the same costs or benefits as the operation that removed Qaddafi? That they represented the same risks or scale of investment on the part of the U.S.?

[J Wolfsberger]

Compared to who? The enlightened denizens of this board? The people running the UK, the EU, Australia? Really?



Not going to judge evil - I'll leave that to all those stellar moral exemplars out there. But in terms of pure folly - are you seriously arguing that the invasion and occupation of Iraq had the same costs or benefits as the operation that removed Qaddafi? That they represented the same risks or scale of investment on the part of the U.S.?

I think this is the wrong thread for your question (see davidbfpo's post above). Do you want to post it here?

[JMA]

Compared to who? The enlightened denizens of this board? The people running the UK, the EU, Australia? Really?

Predicable knee jerk reaction... sad really.