Chinese intelligence and spying (catch all)

[Dayuhan]

I'd say both real and hyped. No doubt there's a threat and an issue, but I also have little doubt that the threat has been oversensationalised. It's also fairly obvious that the same things are being done in the opposite direction, along with various other countermeasures (such as setting up defective or erroneous data for theft). The Chinese are neither omniscient not omnipotent, and the people on the other side are not entirely inept.

Given that as a general rule the most effective intel operations are the ones that remain unknown, it's very difficult to say what's bigger, better, most extensive or most effective.

[bourbon]

I'd say both real and hyped. No doubt there's a threat and an issue, but I also have little doubt that the threat has been oversensationalised.

A previous comment of yours in a thread about cyber-espionage demonstrated that you have a poor understanding of information security concepts. Combine that with your reflexive apologizing for China, and I’m not sure your opinion alone on this matter is worth a damn.

It's also fairly obvious that the same things are being done in the opposite direction,

So what? China hardly has significantly s&t worth stealing for commercial or military industrial purposes; they invent nothing, they innovate nothing – all they do is copy and steal.

Given that as a general rule the most effective intel operations are the ones that remain unknown, it's very difficult to say what's bigger, better, most extensive or most effective.

The operations uncovered so-far are pretty damned impressive and were pretty effective.

[davidbfpo]

Only two small stones to throw into this pond.

I have seen a reference to more PLA officers studying at US universities than US military, less certain was this was at Ph.D. level.

Universities here found now a few years ago that virtually all Chinese technical and scientific students made incredible use of the then free university photocopiers.

[bourbon]

Universities here found now a few years ago that virtually all Chinese technical and scientific students made incredible use of the then free university photocopiers.

Photocopiers are so last century!: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/chinese-students-steal-secrets-inventor-james-dyson/story-e6frg6so-1226028900686

[carl]

Bourbon: Is the whole of this Red Chinese effort centrally coordinated or is it encouraged in a general sense or do they give out equivalents of letters of marque or what? How do they control something so big or do they even truly try?

[Dayuhan]

Combine that with your reflexive apologizing for China, and I’m not sure your opinion alone on this matter is worth a damn.

Since when did failure to panic constitute an apology? Given the nature of the subject, I doubt that any of us is in a position to accurately assess the threat level, and if we were we would not be allowed to post on the subject.

What I said was that threats don't have to be real or hyped, they can also be real and hyped. Virtually all real threats we face are over-hyped, often by people in some way invested in trying to sell us their particular "solution" to whatever threat is in question. That "solution" may be an ideology, a policy, a product, or any number of other things, but if someone needs to invoke fear in order to sell it, there's a good chance that they think the suspension of rational thought is a necessary element of making the sale. Fear is right up there with greed as a marketing strategy.

As a general rule, whenever you read something written by someone who wants you to be afraid, it's time to start taking out grains of salt. That doesn't mean there are no threats, it means that the threats are almost invariably less than what they are hyped up to be.

So what? China hardly has significantly s&t worth stealing for commercial or military industrial purposes; they invent nothing, they innovate nothing – all they do is copy and steal.

Strange how people so incapable of innovation seem, at least according to some, to be so remarkably capable of inventing ways to steal information. How did a bunch of bonehead copycats morph into the omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent masters of the information universe before whom we must tremble in fear?

Our espionage efforts, cyber or otherwise, don't have to be aimed at stealing their innovations. We'd have our own set of goals, like getting a handle on what they've got, where they got it, what they've done with it, and to what extent what they've done with it actually works. Obviously whatever information is gained from these efforts is not being made public.

We know that they spy on us. We also know that we spy on them. We also know that they will be trying to fool us by leaking wrong information to confuse our spying efforts, and that we are doing the same. It's actually a bit reassuring that we don't hear much, if anything, about the efforts on our side. If they were in the headlines, that would be evidence of failure.

The operations uncovered so-far are pretty damned impressive and were pretty effective.

It would be more impressive if they hadn't been uncovered. Is it not an axiom in the intel world that failure is public and success remains unknown?

[carl]

Since when did failure to panic constitute an apology? Given the nature of the subject, I doubt that any of us is in a position to accurately assess the threat level, and if we were we would not be allowed to post on the subject.

That is an all purpose good for whatever ails you argument, I don't know and I know that you don't know because if you did you couldn't say but you did so you don't so what I say is just as good as what you say.

And to answer your question, since legitimate concern became hysteria and panic.

[Dayuhan]

That is an all purpose good for whatever ails you argument, I don't know and I know that you don't know because if you did you couldn't say but you did so you don't so what I say is just as good as what you say.

I can't begin to unravel all that, but I doubt that anyone here is in a position to accurately assess the respective extent and effectiveness of US and Chinese cyperespionage efforts.

And to answer your question, since legitimate concern became hysteria and panic.

When we paint the other guys as giants and ourselves as midgets, when we claim that they know everything about our capabilities and intentions and we know nothing of theirs, when we claim that everything they do works and everything we do fails, when we look at them as an inevitably rising economic powerhouse and ourselves as a terminally declining has-been, when we base our fears on speculative projections of what somebody might be able to do in a few decades... then we go beyond legitimate concern and into the realm of hysteria, panic, and overhyped threats perceptions.

[davidbfpo]

hat tip to the Lowy Institute e-briefing for a pointer to a Jamestown Foundation report on Taiwan's intelligence chief's public parliamentary hearing; which ends with this flip side of Chinese espionage:

...the Taiwanese record of espionage against China suggests Tsai’s remarks should be taken seriously. In his well-publicized leaked remarks last year, PLA Major General Jin Yi’nan identified several major Taiwanese spy cases, including the party secretary of China’s National Nuclear Corporation (“General’s Spy Comments Reveal More Than Just Espionage,” China Brief, September 2, 2011). A few years previously, Taiwanese intelligence also developed a spy ring at the PLA Air Force Command Academy, including the school president and other members of its leadership (Global Times, February 14, 2011). These Taiwanese successes indicate that, regardless of Taiwan’s own counterintelligence problems, the island’s intelligence services continually have developed high-level sources in Chinese military circles that could inform Tsai’s annual reports to the Legislative Yuan.

Link:http://www.jamestown.org/programs/ch...b703805948196e

[slapout9]

On Economic Espionage.......notice it begins with the Cold War is not over!! I agree 100% which all this business spying goes with basic Commie Take Over Theroy from the 50's and 60's. But all the left over Hippies are know in senior leadership postions. Just as Lenin dreamed we will be weakened to such a point where the final takeover violence will be minimal. They know how to attack on a Systems Level.....more Deadly Than War.


http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investig...omic-espionage

[carl]

When we paint the other guys as giants and ourselves as midgets, when we claim that they know everything about our capabilities and intentions and we know nothing of theirs, when we claim that everything they do works and everything we do fails, when we look at them as an inevitably rising economic powerhouse and ourselves as a terminally declining has-been, when we base our fears on speculative projections of what somebody might be able to do in a few decades... then we go beyond legitimate concern and into the realm of hysteria, panic, and overhyped threats perceptions.

I'll tell you what. I'll answer to hysterically panic stricken if you'll answer to complacent appeaser. Deal?

[Dayuhan]

If complacency is the absence of fear, I'll wear that label. It's not a definition I'd use, but some might. Where have I ever advocated appeasement?

I personally think the US education system is a greater threat to American security than Beijing and Goldman Sachs combined, but I guess we all have to be hysterical and panic-stricken over something. I mean, think about it... you live in a country where astrologers outnumber astronomers 100 to 1, and you're worried about the Chinese?