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Thread: India-US relations: cooling and warming up (merged thread)

  1. #61
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    India's ###-for-tat forces US ambassador Nancy Powell to call off Nepal vacation?

    NEW DELHI: US ambassador Nancy Powell had a first-hand experience of India's ire as officials here politely declined to accord her special airport privileges for her Christmas vacation to Nepal.

    The government had on December 19 - a week after the arrest of diplomat Devyani Khobragade — withdrawn all special airport passes to the US diplomats that allowed them access to several places at the airport not just while travelling but also for receiving and seeing off guests. It said this was a reciprocal measure as Indian diplomats were not given the same passes in the US. .....

    After receiving a communication from the US Embassy about Powell's plan to travel to Nepal, the government declined to accord her any special privileges as her airport pass stood withdrawn. The ambassador's special pass came with a photo identity card unlike the "floating passes" reserved for junior diplomats. The withdrawal of the pass means that Powell will have to travel like an ordinary passenger. She will be forced to stand in a queue and also lend herself to routine frisking by security personnel.

    Sources said Powell will not get any privilege in India that her Indian counterpart in the US doesn't get. The government justified this saying that Indian ambassador to the US too travels like an ordinary person. Officials cited the example of the then Indian ambassador to the US Meera Shankar, who was subjected to a public pat-down by security officials at Jackson-Evers International Airport in Mississippi in 2010. She was subjected to a secondary screening by security officials despite Shankar having presented her diplomatic credentials. India's envoy to the UN Hardeep Puri was also detained at Houston airport in Texas after he refused to take his turban off......

    The US continues to seek more time for submitting details sought by India, including salaries paid to all Indian staff employed at the US consulates, citing Christmas and New Year vacations. They have also not filed the details of salaries paid to Indian staff and others in their schools in Delhi and Chennai.
    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/i...w/28023263.cms

    An Indian government official said on Friday that New Delhi had asked the US embassy to provide details about people working in American schools and other US government facilities to determine if they had permission to do so and if they were paying taxes that are mandatory under Indian law.

    Diplomats' spouses who take up work in schools or other embassy facilities are supposed to inform the host country.

    Violations of this kind had often been ignored, but now India would not turn a blind eye, the official said, speaking on condition of anonymity.
    http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...campaign=cppst


    The whole issue is souring relations especially when it was getting better all the time.
    Last edited by Ray; 12-28-2013 at 05:47 AM.

  2. #62
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    Ray:

    If the Indians cut down the imperial trappings of American diplomats in India, I for one am all for it.

    I have a story about that. Years ago the Chinese Ambassador came to the city I was police officering in and I was appointed the state's security detail to him. Little old me, a force of 1 to guard him and his entourage, which consisted of his wife and one other guy. And I went home when he went to bed. I showed up the next morning to find he was out taking a morning stroll by himself. He arrived in the state via commercial airline and was driven around in a rental car. All in all I thought that was all pretty cool and he and his entourage were very gracious to me. That was cool too. So anyway if the ambassador from a country of a billion people can do things plain I don't see why our people in India can't do things plain too, even if they have to be nudged a little.

    (One of the Chinese guys, some kind of press attache, who met the Ambassador at the airport but was not part of his entourage turned out to be a real honest to goodness Red Chinese spy. He later got caught crashing through a fence at a national lab in a car. Maybe he wasn't such a good spy.)
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    Whatever.

    This spat has really upset the Indians and they are livid.

    Not a good thing to happen just when things were warming up.

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    Ray:

    Long term this will have no effect on US-Indian relations. Our interests are just too closely aligned. Red China, freedom of navigation and the possibility of Pak army nukes going walkabout easily trump this.

    That said things will be roiled for awhile. It is my opinion that over here, to the extent this is viewed at all it is viewed as some rich b---h throwing her weight around and picking on a poor person. There will be very little sympathy for that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by carl View Post
    Ray:

    Long term this will have no effect on US-Indian relations. Our interests are just too closely aligned. Red China, freedom of navigation and the possibility of Pak army nukes going walkabout easily trump this.

    That said things will be roiled for awhile. It is my opinion that over here, to the extent this is viewed at all it is viewed as some rich b---h throwing her weight around and picking on a poor person. There will be very little sympathy for that.
    In the long term it will affect the US India relationship.

    India is livid.

    Red China is an issue with India, but then one never knows if the US action that it has taken violating international conventions will create some sort of an understanding with China and Russia.

    It is not a rich b throwing her weight against a poor person. The poor person is another street smart scum who is aware how to make the US do gooders jump to her side, so as to manipulate a US citizenship - the Holy Grail that all the lower income group of India years to achieve.

    Read this please:

    http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes...-nri-prejudice

    TO be frank, the bon homie and the growing fondness of the US in India seems to have evaporated with this case.

    We, in India, are aware of how people try all sorts of tricks, including getting married to US/ UK citisnes to divorce later, just to get into US/ UK and get a citizenship.

    All aid and done, opportunities to eke an existence are greater and easier in western countries than in India.

    One should see the huge number of 'care givers' who go to Canada and elsewhere. They hang around and they get the citizenship.

    Western countries, for reasons best known to them, go out of their way in the game of 'political correctness', turning a blind eye to the reality of the ground situation.

    Also read this:

    http://articles.economictimes.indiat...-narendra-modi

    It indicates that the US has scant regards for foreign court adjudicating on their own citizens.

    All I can say is that the US has not read the tea leaves right and it is indeed sad situation for those who rooted for the US in India.

    The fear is the reversal to the old days that may happen if this spat is not sorted out quickly.
    Last edited by Ray; 12-29-2013 at 07:13 PM.

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    Devyani case: Strong Indian response shocks US officials

    http://ibnlive.in.com/news/devyani-c.../442250-3.html

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    A special group in India’s foreign ministry meets tomorrow to scrutinise the wages. US missions and envoys’ homes are treated as American territory. The missions have missed a December 23 deadline to furnish the wage details, sought in the wake of diplomat Devyani Khobragade’s arrest on wage-linked charges related to a nanny.

    Information with the ministry suggests Indian cooks and drivers at US missions were paid Rs 12,000-15,000 per month, the sources said. That is around $200-$250, below the figure of $1,160 based on the New York minimum wage of $7.25 per hour that Khobragade is accused of not paying.
    http://www.telegraphindia.com/113123...p#.UsGlDPQW3Kc

    India's unusual tough stand on the arrest of its diplomat Devyani Khobragade has forced the US to initiate an "inter-agency review" to look into the lapses that happened in the high-profile case that triggered an uproar in India and strained bilateral ties.....

    "An inter-agency review is going on right now to look into the lapses that happened in the case," sources told PTI.

    In a tacit acknowledgement of the fact that there was a "judgemental error" in handling this case, sources said the inter-agency team led by the State Department is "working 24X7" to get it resolved as quickly as possible.

    Now that the matter has landed up in the judiciary, a lot depends on the judges too - for which the Department of Justice and the Southern District of New York is being actively engaged.

    It is believed that the Department of Defense has expressed its displeasure over the manner in which the entire issue was handled.
    http://articles.economictimes.indiat...s-relationship

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray View Post
    In the long term it will affect the US India relationship.
    Maybe, but I doubt it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray View Post
    We, in India, are aware of how people try all sorts of tricks, including getting married to US/ UK citisnes to divorce later, just to get into US/ UK and get a citizenship.
    So are we.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray View Post
    ...so as to manipulate a US citizenship - the Holy Grail that all the lower income group of India years to achieve.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ray View Post
    All aid and done, opportunities to eke an existence are greater and easier in western countries than in India.
    Perhaps India should ask itself why that is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray View Post
    One should see the huge number of 'care givers' who go to Canada and elsewhere. They hang around and they get the citizenship.

    Western countries, for reasons best known to them, go out of their way in the game of 'political correctness', turning a blind eye to the reality of the ground situation.
    No, I don't think so. We are nations of immigrants and most of those immigrants were losers, scum so to speak, in their old countries. We have a soft spot for people trying to get here because they are in effect, sort of our ancestors.
    "We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene

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    Perhaps India should ask itself why that is.
    All are aware.

    It is economics.

    The same reasons why Nepalis come to work and settle in India and the same reason why there are illegal Bangladeshis pouring into India/

  10. #70
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    Default Ding, Dong the witch is...going away

    Ms. Khobragade is going home.

    http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Asia-...801-10-2014%29

    And a fine thing that is too.
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    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/indiahome...Uncle-Sam.html

    DISEQUILIBRIUM: No backing down from Uncle Sam

    India's anger, justified was progressively worse for the US than it has ever been for Pakistan where mind games are the norm. India has always had an uneasy relationship with the US, never trusting them implicitly, leaning towards socialist Soviet Union which have proved to be a friend in times of crises.

    An undercurrent of anti-Americanism is embedded in the psyches of Indians.

    Despite this as the underlying credo, India normally behaves like this with its immediate neighbour Pakistan.
    I thought the Indians loved us, how disappointing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Moore View Post
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/indiahome...Uncle-Sam.html

    DISEQUILIBRIUM: No backing down from Uncle Sam



    I thought the Indians loved us, how disappointing.
    Indians are comfortable with the English speaking Nations.

    One has to trace the history of Indo US relationship.

    India had emerged from the colonial past of the British, and it was not pleased with the Moghul subjugation either, now that the claimed scions of the Mughal has found a the country of their choice - Pakistan!

    So, India was rejoicing to be its real self.

    In came John Foster Dulles - either you are with US or Against Us.

    it was natural that just independent India would like to revel in its real self after so many centuries of subjugation of foreign rulers (Mughals were foreign, lest one forgers)!

    So naturally, it was not accepted.

    India adopted non alignment.

    It was fine till Pakistan went into the arms of the US, joined CENTO and SEATO, and was boosted by the US both economically and militarily. Pakistan economy became better than India's under Ayub.

    Emboldened Pakistan launched and attack on Kutch in 1965. Moralistic India accepted arbitration of British under Wilson and he favoured Pakistan and India accepted the decision.

    Emboldened Pakistan launched Op Gibraltar to 'free'Kashmir. Their game was given away by Kashmiri shepherds who reported it to the Indian Army and the war began.

    US supplied their latest tanks the Pattons to combat Indian Sherman, but Pakistan came a cropper even with those state of art tanks against the ancient WW II British tanks that had already seen the best of their days!

    India captured more territory that Pakistan but the West intervened to save Pakistan.

    India to survive veered to the Soviet camp, since claiming Indian neutrality.

    In the interim China mauled India in 1962. US half heartedly came to India's assistance after the damage was done. Nehru being suspicious of the US, did not follow up the hand of friendship worried that India would become a surrogate like Pakistan.

    The US even so did help with non defence oriented scheme, while the USSR helped in building India's industrial infrastructure.

    The US played a major role in India's Green Revolution, but messed it up with PL 480 wheat that was possibly a part of the biological warfare wherein the wheat from the US brought invasive (“Congress grass”) weeds to this country.

    Therefore, US efforts became suspect.

    Cut to 1971.

    Nixon and Kissinger were not too fond of India. It is documented. Their Nelson Eye to the atrocities in East Pakistan is legend as is their steaming in the 7th Fleet. There is no doubt that the influx of refugee was a heavy burden on India and there is no doubt that Indira Gandhi capitalised on the situation to rid one thorn off India's flesh. And she was successful to outwit both Pakistan and the formidable US.

    Cut to the current.

    India is not ethnically, culturally or socially akin to the Slavic or Han people. Because of MacCaulay, the British colonialist and racist if you will, he converted Indians to be British in thought and Indian in colour. These MacCaulkay's children as they are called own and run India.

    Therefore, they are comfortable with the English values and the English speaking world. US is thus a 'natural' ally.

    However, everyone has self respect and none wants to be a vassal or a surrogate.

    Khborgade, the consular staff is not the issue. The issue is US unilaterally rejecting international treaties like the ARTICLE 41 OR 47 of the Vienna Convention for Consular Staff and that US laws overrule all the treaties they have signed!

    That mean no treaty is sacrosanct over US Law!

    Logically that is ridiculous, if not downright stupid.

    How can Nations interact without an accepted norm that the nations have have signed as binding?

    Can the US allow the Mafai to have their own laws to dictate terms to the US citizens?

    US is still liked in India,but one is disappointed since notwithstanding a nations power, we still have to exist under some law and regulations and not be unilateral pushed around claiming local laws are supreme.

    What would be the US reaction if we jailed the homosexual couple in the US Embassy since it violated the Indian laws?

    what about the Raymond Davis case where he murdered the Pakistanis?

    The US went hammer and tongs!

    If that horrendous crime and saving the chap was kosher, what is Bharara ((a MATA = More American than Americans) problem to embarrass the US Govt of being unequal in treatment?

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    Ray,

    You provided a lot of history in that last post, some of it unknown to me. Definitely provides a different perspective on the issue. To be fair I only have very superficial knowledge of this case, but you pecked my interest now. My previous comment was based on a survey of Indian attitudes toward the US, and according to the survey the Indians loved the US. I got it, it is a huge country with a very diverse populations so what does the survey mean in the end? None the less I was surprised by the level of hostility over this incident.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Moore View Post
    Ray,

    You provided a lot of history in that last post, some of it unknown to me. Definitely provides a different perspective on the issue. To be fair I only have very superficial knowledge of this case, but you pecked my interest now. My previous comment was based on a survey of Indian attitudes toward the US, and according to the survey the Indians loved the US. I got it, it is a huge country with a very diverse populations so what does the survey mean in the end? None the less I was surprised by the level of hostility over this incident.
    Notwithstanding that India is a very large country with a varied population with varied identities and political views, India still considers US as a natural friend, though a very unpredictable and unaccommodating friend – a friend that ignores the sensitivity of others, ascribing its own morality and way of life as the sole and righteous standard.

    Ever since the warming up of Indo US Relations from the Clinton days and becoming a warmest and hearty one under Bush (Mr Bush India love you, as was said by PM Manmohan Singh), the Indians have always had a more than accommodating stance towards the US. That is why the US enjoys more privileges in India than other nations.

    L'affairé Khobragade is not so much about this person. To be fair, she is a low level diplomat and that is about all. Why it has become a cause célèbre is because of two issues:

    1. The US does not show any reciprocity for privileges they demand for themselves in India. Some privileges going beyond the law and general civilities, and worse, privileges they ascribe to themselves in an imperious manner, so to say, as if subject to no earthly authority, deriving the right to rule directly from the will of God. (I will explain this below).

    2. Barharra’s act was in direct contravention of Articles 41 and 47 of the Veienna Convention for Consular Staff.

    Article 41.

    Definitions
    1. For the purposes of the present Convention, the following expressions shall have the meanings hereunder assigned to them:
    a. "consular post" means any consulate-general, consulate, vice-consulate or consular agency;

    Personal Inviolability of Consular Officers
    1. Consular officers shall not be liable to arrest or detention pending trial, except in the case of a grave crime and pursuant to a decision by the competent judicial authority.

    Article 47

    Exemption From Work Permits
    1. Members of the consular post shall, with respect to services rendered for the sending State, be exempt from any obligations in regard to work permits imposed by the laws and regulations of the receiving State concerning the employment of foreign labour.
    2. Members of the private staff of consular officers and of consular employees shall, if they do not carry on any other gainful occupation in the receiving State, be exempt from the obligations referred to in paragraph 1 of this Article.

    A fair analysis will indicate that the US is wholly wrong in so far as ignoring Article 41 and subjecting a diplomatic to indignities, and her arrest was illegal since a wage dispute is by no stretch of imagination, a ‘grave’ crime. Even if was taken to that ridiculous limit, the diplomat still had to be given her due dignities as is given to diplomats.

    There is also the feeling in India that the US not recognising Article 47 is based on the fact that the US does not recognise domestic help as rendering services to the sending state. The US A-3 visa, for example, is reserved for “personal employees” of diplomats. This discrepancy between Indian practice and US law is something usually more honoured in the breach than the observed but nonetheless remains a wrinkle.

    On the other hand, there is NO Reciprocity of the privileges demanded and extended to the US Diplomats that are extended by the US to Indian diplomats. There lies the nub of the issue and the rub.

    There has been much brouhaha about the barricades that were there for US Embassies and Consulates. As also of pay to personal employees to being at par.

    They were not mere barricades. Whole public thoroughfares, causing total inconvenience to locals, had been blocked off to satisfy the fear of the US of terrorists’ attacks. India too is a target for terrorists, but no such security arrangements were extended. Therefore, the outrage in the US is misplaced.

    On wages, the Indian staffs in the US facilities are pittance when compared to the US rates. US Embassy is US soil. Therefore, should US laws on wage not prevail there too for Indians employed there?

    In fact

    A new State Department report says some local employees hired by U.S. embassies and other posts around the world are so poorly paid they have to cut back to one meal a day or send their children to peddle on the streets……..

    Some U.S. missions are in impoverished parts of the world where low salaries are common, and there is a wide range in pay depending on what jobs are performed and where. But the report sets out a stark picture of the richest country in the world paying some of the lowest salaries.

    "Twenty-seven missions presented compelling arguments that their lower-grade employees fall short of minimal living standards," the report said.

    "These arguments included accounts of LE [locally employed] staff: removing children from school, cutting back to one meal a day, sending children to sell water or little cakes or toiletries on the streets ... employees depending on salary advances and defaulting on loans in order to cover basic expenses ... [pay]grades 1 to 3 earning less than $1.00 per day."

    But the report provides no specific numbers of how many local employees might be making less than $1 a day.

    http://edition.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS...ef=werecommend
    That is why in India, one finds the moralist grandstanding of the US to be a tad hypocritical.

    In this connection, when caught with the pants down, Americans grandstand on morality with silly articles in the Forbes titled In Furore Over Diplomat, India Avoids Legacy of Suffering and gets gleefully vicarious over Dalits. The one who wrote the article is such an ignoramus that he does realise that both the Diplomat and the maid are Dalit.

    Therefore, would it not be that India is fighting for the right of a Dalit and so should be applauded?

    Now what are the Diplomatic Privileges removed (which are not anyway to be extended de jure)?

    1. Diplomats being told to obey local traffic law. This one diplomat complained would cause great discomfort since parking space is very difficult to get in the diplomat popular Khan Market in Delhi.

    2. Restriction on the popular U.S. Embassy club that violates diplomatic law because it is open to outsiders. That is defrauding the Indian exchequer by running a commercial establishment and profiteering circumventing Indian laws because outsiders, who are not US diplomats cannot take advantage of a tax free binge. This has affected the US expatriates.

    3. Closing down commercial establishments like the Beauty Parlour, cinema, restaurants et all that caters not only for the diplomats but also outsiders to include US expatriates, who by using such facilities are violating Indian laws and defrauding the Indian exchequer.

    May see

    India targets expatriates’ privileges at U.S. club amid dispute over diplomat’s arrest

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...5b3_story.html

    India expelled one Diplomat called May, who was in charge of security.

    I wonder if he the brightest spark of the US Diplomatic Corps given his antics.

    The Indian Govt asked the United States to withdraw May because he was involved in problematic U.S. actions last month, including the evacuation of Richard’s family.

    The tickets for Sangeeta’s (the maid) husband Phillip and children Jennifer and Jatin were granted the 4.50 per cent tax exemption that is the norm for diplomatic missions in the country. The evidence of US embassy’s further collusion in the family’s travel to the US emerged on a day when diplomat Devyani Khobragade was granted exemption from personal appearances in a New York court as it took up charges of alleged visa fraud against her.


    Further, how much of a diplomat can be seen from this:


    Expelled US diplomat criticised for comments


    US State Department distances itself from online remarks made by diplomat expelled amid row over Indian envoy's arrest.

    http://www.aljazeera.com/news/southa...816225387.html

    There are signs that this will blow over, but hopefully India can be in a position to demand reciprocity and maintain it.

    Though the article below overdoes it, but you may read it to realise how the unilateral actions by the US affects not only India, but others too

    http://www.telegraphindia.com/114011...p#.UtYkhJ61aAo
    Last edited by Ray; 01-15-2014 at 12:31 PM.

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    Default Adarsh Housing Scandal

    The US should never have let things get this far and the initial error lies with the US. But this episode highlights how poorly the diplomatic services of both countries perform, at times.

    Opinion is not a monolith within either the Indian or American community, and, as yet, I have see no comprehensive surveys of opinion outside of journalists or elite circles.

    This diplomat was involved in a scandal involving flats in Mumbai that were intended for Kargil war widows and the like. It became a scandal in India when the flats went instead to connected high level ex-military and Indian government officials.

    There is plenty of commentary in the Indian papers about how this official finally got caught out for behavior.

    The three main opinions (based on comments to articles in Indian papers) include:

    1. She got what she deserved and good for the Americans. Why does India appoint such unqualified people to diplomatic posts? No wonder the Indians get the run around.
    2. The Americans are arrogant jerks and they have a habit of treating Indian officials badly, while feting others, including Pakistani officials with dubious histories.
    3. She should be tried in India, not the U.S. She is a problem, but our problem.

    Bill, what you are seeing is various fault lines within the Indian society and Indians abroad being displayed. India is a complicated place. There are many families with an Indian-American connection (whether in India or the US) that have a buried skeleton in the closet of being scammed for money or marriage matters. The worst stuff is said behind closed doors both in India and the US, and then, once in a while, it gets out to the public. Everyone here has a point because it's a complicated situation.

    This "all of India is angry" really refers to the subset of people bothering to pay attention. That this includes officials is an issue but it's a hiccup.

    It's good that this happened in one way; we both can have more realistic ideas about one another.

    No one looks particular good in this matter.

    The anger against the corrupt "babu" Indian class is real and at least some of the election year drama against this stuff is fear of what the Indian public might do to the comfortable life of its more connected officials.

    Which doesn't make the US behavior correct. For diplomacy's sake, this should have been handled a different way.

    By the way, Preet Bahara is an ambitious guy who has prosecuted lots of high profile cases. This is a better lens than the Brahama Chelleny or MK Bhadrakumar line of "more American than American" that Ray has brought up.

    That is dated. The Indian community in the US is pretty comfortable in its skin. It doesn't need to prove anything to anyone, in general. (Naturally a generalization but none of the commentary is based on hard evidence, really, in terms of what general opinion is.

    Khobragade is married to a well-to-do Indian American, a wine expert and academic with a good job. The maid apparently has parents that work for someone in the US Embassy in Dehli, I've read (but not sure).

    The comments about the diplomat in the Indian papers by commenters is scathing.

    You can search for blogs about so-called Indian babus to see this side of the commentary.

    All sides are valid here because it is not straightforward on first blush and so many have behaved badly.
    Last edited by Madhu; 01-15-2014 at 04:25 PM. Reason: minor spelling edits
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    Default Adarsh Housing Scandal

    Lots of articles in this vein. It doesn't mean the US is correct but it bears on the opinion about this case in various constituencies.

    Most of the Western commentary has been about high flyers and the upper middle class. The larger opinion is hard to gauge, so many reporters are in a bubble that includes other reporters and the officials they cover. Myra McDonald at War on the Rocks seems to be a bit in this category, which is surprising. Generally a good commenter on these issues. At any rate, an article about Adarsh:
    That's not all when it comes to Devyani's real estate holdings in Mumbai. When she got the Adarsh flat, she already owned a flat in another government housing society in Oshiwara, which too was allotted under the state government's 10 per cent quota where recipients get flats at extremely cheap rates as compared to Mumbai's stratospheric market prices, and which is another fount of corruption in Mumbai, with most flats cornered by politicians and their relatives, and of course bureaucrats and their relatives, and those connected to their powers that be, making a mockery of the 10 percent quota supposedly for helping citizens who need it most. As the Economic Times reports, a massive 42 percent of such flats allocated in the past 10 years were resold by allottees at much higher prices, making a killing in the bargain at the expense of the taxpayer and the common Indian. Things have become so bad with the 10 percent quota that the Bombay High Court recently warned the Maharashtra government of contempt if it continued to stonewall requests to name double and multiple allottees of such flats.
    OTOH, Daniel Patrick Moynihan once said that the Indians so much as told us that they were going to go nuclear, so to speak, in the late 90's, and we just didn't listen. The case of the Indian fisherman and the Italians pretty much told us how the Indian elite class would react to this case.

    And the Indians should have posted someone else after getting certain signals.

    I doubt long term relations are seriously soured but both embassies seem to be a bit of a disaster.

    Read more at: http://www.firstpost.com/india/how-a...ce=ref_article
    Last edited by davidbfpo; 01-15-2014 at 05:48 PM. Reason: added one line. Fix citation.
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  17. #77
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    As I said this case was not about Khobargde.

    Her family are well known wheeler dealer and there is no symoathy for them.

    It is a matter of principles and nothing else.

    Do unto others as you would have others do unto you. [Matthew 7:12]

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    Default More than one principle

    Of course it's a matter of principle. It's also being used to comment on the state of the India American relationship.

    More than one principle is at stake. The US shouldn't have let this get out of hand and someone needs to look at the State Department and the administration and how it got to this point.

    But the Indians failed on a point of principle too; better quality people capable of following laws, especially where they have been warned, should be appointed. Diplomacy is a two way street. Vienna conventions and learning the ways of your host country and its behavior.

    If now both Indian and American diplomats are more careful, good. It's a high flying life for some and they cause so much trouble for the nations they are supposed to represent.

    I know of relatives that have been asked to fiddle papers for Indians assigned to the UN and the relative refused.

    I'm sure the same goes on in India with American officials that try and skirt rules.

    Maybe we should all focus on being competent for a change.

    What goes around comes around. The US and India are both getting this message. At least, the more competent should understand. Letting it all get to this point is a clown show. The Chinese must be rolling around in laughter at both.

    And both the Indian and American commentary is stuck in the 1970's. It's 2014.

    Everyone has a point, everyone is correct on the one point they are discussing. But, overall, it's a complicated and multifactorial issue.

    The punditry has been appallingly shallow in the papers.
    Last edited by Madhu; 01-15-2014 at 05:54 PM. Reason: adding one more sentence
    “I am practicing being kind instead of right” - Matthew Quick, The Silver Linings Playbook

    "Throughout the world sounds one long cry from the heart of the artist: Give me the chance to do my very best." - Babette's Feast

  19. #79
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    So she's connected. Color me surprised.
    "We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray View Post
    Notwithstanding that India is a very large country with a varied population with varied identities and political views, India still considers US as a natural friend, though a very unpredictable and unaccommodating friend – a friend that ignores the sensitivity of others, ascribing its own morality and way of life as the sole and righteous standard.
    Many elements of truth in there.
    "We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene

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