Results 1 to 14 of 14

Thread: How to knock out a Brigade TOC

  1. #1
    Council Member Culpeper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Roswell, USA
    Posts
    540

    Default How to knock out a Brigade TOC

    While tanks were securing ground in downtown Baghdad their TOC, which was 11 miles away, received a direct hit from an unguided surface-to-surface missile. It KIA a few soldiers, destroyed several vehicles, a lot of equipment, and shut down the TOC completely for over an hour. Now, remembering back when I was just a ROMAD radio operator I was told never to transmit more than I had to, and that was just with the small radios available at the time. Sometimes we forget the basics. I guess the TOC was transmitting like FoxNews and an unguided missile became a guided missile. Apparently, someone was on the ball and knew in what direction to fire that missile. Ironically, the TOC was celebrating their brigade's morning advancements at the time of the strike. The rest is history. Lesson learned but how to prevent it?

  2. #2
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    The Land of The Morning Calm
    Posts
    177

    Default

    They got hit more by being located in an easily identified facility/compound than sigint.

  3. #3
    Council Member RTK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Wherever my stuff is
    Posts
    823

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Culpeper View Post
    While tanks were securing ground in downtown Baghdad their TOC, which was 11 miles away, received a direct hit from an unguided surface-to-surface missile. It KIA a few soldiers, destroyed several vehicles, a lot of equipment, and shut down the TOC completely for over an hour. Now, remembering back when I was just a ROMAD radio operator I was told never to transmit more than I had to, and that was just with the small radios available at the time. Sometimes we forget the basics. I guess the TOC was transmitting like FoxNews and an unguided missile became a guided missile. Apparently, someone was on the ball and knew in what direction to fire that missile. Ironically, the TOC was celebrating their brigade's morning advancements at the time of the strike. The rest is history. Lesson learned but how to prevent it?
    If I remember correctly, transmitting grids in the red is not a good method for success.

    I believe your quote is from the 3 ID Division AAR for OIF. It goes into quite a bit of detail on this specific event.

  4. #4
    Council Member Culpeper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Roswell, USA
    Posts
    540

    Default

    Is it online?

  5. #5
    Small Wars Journal SWJED's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Largo, Florida
    Posts
    3,989

    Default Yes...

    Quote Originally Posted by Culpeper View Post
    Is it online?
    ... Global Security has a lot of the early AARs to include the 3 ID's here.

  6. #6
    Council Member SSG Rock's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Fort Leavenworth, KS
    Posts
    125

    Default Without reading SWJED's link....

    Don't have time to check SWJED's link, I will read later.

    Jimbo has it right, the TOC was indeed hit because it was established at a well known Iraqi warhouse in an industrial district.
    Don't taze me bro!

  7. #7
    Council Member RTK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Wherever my stuff is
    Posts
    823

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SWJED View Post
    ... Global Security has a lot of the early AARs to include the 3 ID's here.
    I relooked it last night - its not in there. I do know there was an after operations review that detailed that incident. I'll have to go back through my stuff where I saw it.

  8. #8
    Council Member SSG Rock's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Fort Leavenworth, KS
    Posts
    125

    Default

    In "On Point" the fact that the TOC was located in the warehouse is noted, but does not mention that as the reason it was hit. Since I helped write this book I can tell you that it was written far too early to allow full analysis.

    But, as I am currently reading COBRA II, and read about the 2 BCT TOC attack just last night that Trainor states unequivically that the attack occurred due to it's location at the warehouse. A well know location to the insurgents.
    Last edited by SSG Rock; 11-08-2006 at 08:43 PM.
    Don't taze me bro!

  9. #9
    Council Member Culpeper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Roswell, USA
    Posts
    540

    Default

    Fig 203 shows the blast hole. Can anyone tell if that rocket came straight down? What is that stuff hanging off that horizontal pole in the right foreground? How far away was the tent that housed the command center? "On Point" states it was within a few feet.

    Last edited by Culpeper; 11-13-2006 at 12:22 AM.

  10. #10
    Council Member 120mm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Wonderland
    Posts
    1,284

    Default

    Are sure it was an "unguided" shot? Haven't the bad guys for years combined a "lucky shot" from an indirect fire weapon with a stealth "sapper" attack in order to allow the "sapper" team to get away?

    Of course, I haven't read the associated background paper....

  11. #11
    Council Member Culpeper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Roswell, USA
    Posts
    540

    Default

    Well, the FROG-7 is an unguided free rocket over ground weapon. It was a lucky shot considering it landed a few feet from the command tent.. Or was it? I don't know that much about this weapon's accuracy. It's a "battlefield" weapon designed to land in an area. Not a specific spot as far as I know. And that blast hole doesn't look like anything other than from straight above detonation and according to reports was nearly a direct hit on the command tent.
    Last edited by Culpeper; 11-18-2006 at 12:58 AM.

  12. #12
    Council Member Tom Odom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    DeRidder LA
    Posts
    3,949

    Default Rocket system not missile

    Correct on the FROG rocket--that's why as an unguided system it was never classed as a missile.

  13. #13
    Council Member Culpeper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Roswell, USA
    Posts
    540

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SSG Rock View Post
    In "On Point" the fact that the TOC was located in the warehouse is noted, but does not mention that as the reason it was hit. Since I helped write this book I can tell you that it was written far too early to allow full analysis.

    But, as I am currently reading COBRA II, and read about the 2 BCT TOC attack just last night that Trainor states unequivically that the attack occurred due to it's location at the warehouse. A well know location to the insurgents.
    I have just finished reading Cobra II and I have to disagree on the authors' take on the attack. The authors did not unequivocally come to the conclusion that it was because the TOC was in a well known geographic area. The authors hedged around the entire subject in one small paragraph.

    Welsey thought the Iraqis had scored a one-in-a-million shot and decided to reestablish the TOC in the same vicinity...[however] one military intelligence officer...thought it had been a mistake to use the facility in the first place. The Iraqis, he reasoned...knew the geographic coordinates of their own facilities and could easily target them. [p. 402]
    The TOC was hit by an unguided rocket. It was nearly a direct hit on the communication tent. I'm still of the opinion that the transmission grid of the TOC turned an unguided rocket aimed at the general vicinity into a guided rocket that ended up with a direct hit on the TOC communication apparatus. Basic radio discipline broke down and created the right atmosphere for the end result. Also, the authors described the weapon simply as a "surface-to-surface" missile. I'm sure the authors knew it was an unguided rocket weapons system that hit the target. The authors were very specific about missile types used by the Iraqis throughout the book except with the attack on the TOC. There are also no end notes for the incident in the book.

  14. #14
    Council Member 120mm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Wonderland
    Posts
    1,284

    Default

    Oops. Repost
    Last edited by 120mm; 01-03-2007 at 10:06 AM.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •