Adapting Equipment to the Reality of the Battlefield

[Rob Thornton]

MC,

Opal is just a type of car used by AIF allot because its so common here. As for the M4, its good for AT&T long distance calls as well with the right optics, and increasingly US troops are showing up with better optics. Having been a Marine before I became an Army Infanty Officer, I've spent lots of time at the range. You can get out quite a ways with an M4, put an ACOG or some other scope on it and so much the better - I like my ACOG with tritium because I have a thing against batteries and it has a quick reflex back up Iron on the top. 300m with irons is definetly in the doable, with a 4x32 4-500 is pretty easy, some of these units are spending the dough on their SDMs (the right call) and investing in top of the line ACOGs - better then 4x32s, but pricey. Like I said, the only thing I'd put on a Christmas list would be a slightly more serious caliber, but that's personal pref. In reality there are a number of reasons we'll probably keep 5.56 such as the cost of retooling, training, etc,. in the end the 5.56 will do the job just fine.

AIF like ambushes and urban terrain often facillitates that. an Ambush does not require the type of coordination an attack does, and allows for use of IEDs, etc to initiate with. It also keeps AIF from being PID'd until the last possible moment. Its more of a question of them acknowledging their capabilities and limitations then trying to downplay ours I think, although if you want to lump the fact that they know what routes we have to clear (common knowledge by any Iraqi at this point) - you can chalk that up to vulnerabilites.

[120mm]

3 issues I'd like to address, here. First, Monte Cristo, the reason why we are FORCED to engage the enemy in Iraq at close range, is that they use the terrain they have to FORCE us to go in after them at close range. If we "stand off" and snipe them, we become the Air Force, just killing everything that looks suspicious.

Second, none of the semi-auto precision rifle options are good ones. Both the M-21/25 and SR-25 systems have functional issues. While you may find the odd one that works well and accurately on the target line, they are difficult to maintain in the field with stoppages and failure to feed. Bottom line: You can have functionality or you can have accuracy, but you must choose.

Third, bullpups are fatally flawed. Their ergonomics are Not Good(tm). Combat magazine changes are crucial to the CQB fight, and while the top-loading magazine bullpups have good ergo, they require an overly complicated and fragile action. And the bottom-loading ones are hard to change, compared to the M4. Also, the only way left-handed firers can shoot bullpups is to teach right-handed firing, eject through the bottom, which has significant problems, or introduce a fragile and complex system for changing which side they eject from.

There is a certain amount of parallax which is built in to the basic bull pup design over and above the M4 type. The higher you make the sight, and the closer to the muzzle the sight it, the more you have to compensate for parallax, which confines your combat range.

I am continually getting in peeing matches with folks who argue "bullpup uber alles", but generally speaking, they do not understand the role that basic ergonomics plays in infantry combat, nor do they understand parallax.

I don't think small arms are that relevant to the Small Wars issue, anyway. While equipment shortcomings and PERCEIVED shortcomings can become part of the I/O battle (And, obtw, Russia, Iran and China are fighting an I/O battle over military equipment right now against the west) I think it matters not what your soldiers are equipped with, it is how they use it.

[goesh]

It wouldn't take any training to cross over since it is an AR platform

[Monte Cristo]

3 issues I'd like to address, here. First, Monte Cristo, the reason why we are FORCED to engage the enemy in Iraq at close range, is that they use the terrain they have to FORCE us to go in after them at close range. If we "stand off" and snipe them, we become the Air Force, just killing everything that looks suspicious.

Well, first of all, I would like to formally thank you for the rhetorical spanking. It felt great! Plus, I really needed that! Seriously though, I suggest you save your misplaced aggressiveness for more worthy causes.

The enemy doesn't compel you to do anything. You make your own decisions….bad decisions if you’re unable to control your emotional impulses. When the nature of the mission or the lack of tactical foresight exposes you to hostile fire or ambushes, following your enemy might lead you into a trap. You might want to reflect on that. The best soldiers are those that manage to find a balance between too much and too little aggressiveness.

I feel that the substance of my threat has been lost.

Back to you, Bill.

[Steve Blair]

Well, first of all, I would like to formally thank you for the rhetorical spanking. It felt great! Plus, I really needed that! Seriously though, I suggest you save your misplaced aggressiveness for more worthy causes.

The enemy doesn't compel you to do anything. You make your own decisions….bad decisions if you’re unable to control your emotional impulses. When the nature of the mission or the lack of tactical foresight exposes you to hostile fire or ambushes, following your enemy might lead you into a trap. You might want to reflect on that. The best soldiers are those that manage to find a balance between too much and too little aggressiveness.

I feel that the substance of my threat has been lost.

Back to you, Bill.

You do not always have to follow the enemy to be exposed to close-in attacks. The basic mission of population security does that for you. To provide that security, you HAVE to be out there with them. That exposes you to IEDs and ambushes. Nature of the beast, not bad decisions or over-aggressiveness.

Back to 120mm...I agree about the bullpups. Quick reload is a major concern, and too many non-shooters just don't understand parallax or the role that reasonably precise shooting plays in the real world. Just because your bullpup does well in Counterstrike doesn't mean it will work well out in the field.

[Monte Cristo]

Counterstrike? Is that a flick or something?

[Steve Blair]

Counterstrike? Is that a flick or something?

First person shooter. You'd be amazed how many people get their ideas about how weapons work from computer games. This of course ain't how they really work.

Rob: The 5.56 versus 7.62 debate has been around for ages. Usually it's been spun as rate of fire and weight of ammo as opposed to penetration ability. 7.62 has greater penetration power, but you can carry more 5.56 and weapons that use it tend to have a higher rate of fire (at least until the 3-round burst feature came into use). I suspect the debate will always be with us.

[Monte Cristo]

If you wanna debate console games, you should wait for 120 mm to get online.

I'm afraid that my experince with bullpups is limited to live-fire range exercises.

[Steve Blair]

No debate on console games. Just pointing out that perception does not always equal reality when it comes to equipment and the situation in the field. 120mm makes very valid points in his post about the capabilities of weapon systems, and as someone who's using the gear today, Rob's points should be considered carefully as well. Using a weapon in range exercises isn't the same thing as using it when you're under fire in a dirty environment.

This whole thing brings to mind one lesson that every army seems to have to relearn with EVERY conflict: that of combat load for infantry personnel. Back around 1870 or so a group of German medical students determined that the most an infantryman could be expected to carry without degrading his endurance and performance was around 40 pounds. But every conflict we've been in since that time this lesson always surfaces as something new. Sort of like "you need more water when operating in a desert or jungle environment." Who knew?

[Monte Cristo]

Using a weapon in range exercises isn't the same thing as using it when you're under fire in a dirty environment.

So, in your opinion, training on range is pretty much useless...And what exactly is a "dirty" environment?

[Steve Blair]

Now who's trying circular logic?

I did not say range training is useless. I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. What I said is that it is NOT the same thing as using a weapon in a combat environment when someone's shooting back at you, you're under stress, carrying a full combat load, tired, and scared. And combat zones tend to be dirty. Your weapon may have been dropped, rained on, or otherwise rendered less than pristine. It won't behave the same as it does on the range.

[Monte Cristo]

I wish we could continue this fascinating conversation, but unfortunately I have to leave, and I probably won't be anywhere near a computer with an Internet connection for a while. I wish you guys all the best. Keep it up and keep it civil!

[Rob Thornton]

Best comment I've seen yet is 120's. What ever you have - train with it! A piece of advice that every small unit trainer should live.

Steve, your right about the argument - when it comes down to it the 5.56 is a fine caliber for what its designed for.

M.C. as far as emotions go, everybody goes to work here with a different feel on any given day, sometimes you go a certain route at a certain time becasuse somebody says you have to go that way for one reason or another. Sometimes you are the bug and sometimes your the windshield - being the bug is no fun. What is fun is showing the bad guy one thing, but giving him something else.

I'm pretty sure the usefulness of this thread is exhausted.

Regards, Rob

[Stan]

I once had the chance to take an Estonian Infantry NCO and his boss (an 0-6) to Maryland on an OTT. Maryland is Estonia's Partner State and still is today.

Once at Aberdeen they were offered to try various weapons on the range and at the end of the day, both seemed to favor the M-14 over any other weapon. After several rounds we headed to a local watering hole to discuss the day's events and a little history about long rifles.

Turns out, one of the NCO's distant relatives was part of an Estonia sniper unit trained by the Germans in the early 1900s. The unit then and today is know as the Kuperjanov Single Infantry Battalion. Formed as a partisan troop in 1918 by 1LT Julius Kuperjanov, their enemies (the Russians) referred to them as a death squad, and rightfully so. Kuperjanov's men were responsible for more Russian officer casualties than that of 25 years of war.

Also known as Forest Brothers and lacking sufficient ammo to sustain a long firefight, they would simply wait hiden in a dense growth of trees for an adorn officer and use a single 7mm round (per officer).

On 06 JAN 1919 and so proud of her husband's success, Alice Kuperjanov embroidered the battalion's first sleeve patch. Skull and crossbones with a black background and gold border.

The Kuperjanov battalion still wears this patch today, but now use US-donated M14s and continue to practice the one-round rule.

Regards, Stan