Side story on the recent gun spree

[Fuchs]

You might also consider that the United States is the result of several hundreds of years of self selection for people from Europe who did not much care for European social structure.

It's funny how many shapes this nonsensical idea has. Only one is in common; the nationality of the people sharing such an idea.

There was no self-selection.

The felons, the losers, the hungry Irish, the African captives of war, a handful greedy guys intent on robbing natives early on, a couple of his/her majesty's servants from UK/France/Spain and a few fugitives make up the bulk of the immigrating ancestors of the modern U.S. population.


Almost nobody emigrated from Europe because of dissent with social structures which a young European of today would recognise.

[carl]

The felons, the losers, the hungry Irish, the African captives of war, a handful greedy guys intent on robbing natives early on, a couple of his/her majesty's servants from UK/France/Spain and a few fugitives make up the bulk of the immigrating ancestors of the modern U.S. population.


Almost nobody emigrated from Europe because of dissent with social structures which a young European of today would recognise.

All those felons and losers did pretty good over the years don't you think? A lot better than their betters who stayed behind, since those felons and losers had to save their betters from themselves 3, count 'em 3 times in the 20th Century. (Normally I hate bringing that up but sometimes it needs to be done.)

In any event, I think you are incorrect in your assertion. Many of the Jews came over here because they disliked pogroms, which could be considered a facet of the social structure. Many Germans came here because they didn't want to do compulsory military service, another facet of the social structure. And I believe most of the rest could be viewed as coming here to improve the economic positions of themselves and especially their children. They did that, quite spectacularly. You could view them as losers I guess, they probably viewed themselves as being held back in Europe (by the socio/economic structure perhaps) so they went someplace where they wouldn't be held back. Their judgment was pretty good I think, for felons and losers I mean.

[Fuchs]

All those felons and losers did pretty good over the years don't you think? A lot better than their betters who stayed behind, since those felons and losers had to save their betters from themselves 3, count 'em 3 times in the 20th Century. (Normally I hate bringing that up but sometimes it needs to be done.)

Seriously, hadn't you messed up the first one thee outcome would have been quite bearable and there would have been no 2nd time, much less a third.


BTW, I also have some cans ready to serve, only need to open them.

"The only thing approaching a unifying theme for this cataclysm we call “WW II” is the United States, THE major allied participant in the Pacific (think logistics all you commonwealth coalition guys that are thinking “what about us” as you read this) and the United States becomes the principal partner in the Western alliance which is handling, admittedly only 20-30% of the European War duties against the background of the massive Soviet-German war. I have written this before but will write it again, we say at CGSC that Overlord was simply a deception operation to support BAGRATION and the destruction of Army Group Center!

En Avant!

Dr. John T. Kuehn
CDR USN (ret)
Associate Professor of Military History
Adjunct Professor, Norwich University
CGSC Ft Leavenworth"

The Jews fit what I meant with the "fugitives" although I should have written "refugees".


I was taking aim at the U.S.-borne idea that Europeans left Europe and went to the U.S. to build a better country, without socialism and regulations and stuff. That's a modern myth.
Most left Europe in search of opportunities to get rich easily (by exploiting others, say natives) or because of economic distress (such as starving Irishmen). Rather few were religious or political refugees, and even while some were; Prussia was also a destination for such refugees (see the Huguenots).
Europeans also went to Africa and Latin America and Australia and Siberia in a quest for additional natural resources. This was simply a function of European societies being able to raise more children than being able to feed and clothe them as adults.

I've seen enough Americans use this myth (of Americans being supposedly the ones who left Europe in disagreement in order to build a superior nation) in a context of jingoism. I'm tired of this nonsense. Americans (from the U.S.) excuse too many stupid policies and society defects with a supposed exceptionalism and how their model is supposedly superior, damn the evidence.
Any policy that needs support by such a line of argument has a bad odour.

[carl]

Seriously, hadn't you messed up the first one thee outcome would have been quite bearable and there would have been no 2nd time, much less a third.

Ah. The good old "It your fault. What did you expect us to do?" argument, very popular amongst hoods. And I believe it was also popular amongst Euro pols in days gone by.

I was taking aim at the U.S.-borne idea that Europeans left Europe and went to the U.S. to build a better country, without socialism and regulations and stuff. That's a modern myth.

Most left because they didn't like life in Europe, kings, aristocrats, starvation, near starvation etc. They left and built a better country.

Most left Europe in search of opportunities to get rich easily (by exploiting others, say natives) or because of economic distress (such as starving Irishmen). Rather few were religious or political refugees, and even while some were; Prussia was also a destination for such refugees (see the Huguenots).

If by "to get rich easily" you mean being able to get ahead at all, something they evidently judged they couldn't do in Europe, you're right.

This was simply a function of European societies being able to raise more children than being able to feed and clothe them as adults.

That is a breezy way of saying those children would be locked in grinding poverty and starvation or near starvation throughout their lives. Good reason to leave I'd say.

I've seen enough Americans use this myth (of Americans being supposedly the ones who left Europe in disagreement in order to build a superior nation) in a context of jingoism. I'm tired of this nonsense. Americans (from the U.S.) excuse too many stupid policies and society defects with a supposed exceptionalism and how their model is supposedly superior, damn the evidence.
Any policy that needs support by such a line of argument has a bad odour.

Speaking for myself, I don't really care if Euros sniff and put their noses in the air when discussing things we Americans do. Our ancestors left Europe because they didn't like it there. They came here and made something better. Why should we care if the Euros they didn't like then don't like what we do now?

[Firn]

I think we get a little off the track here, even for a side story on the recent gun spree.

Still I offer a nice, pseudo-latin song about a little journey of a fellow countryman, sponsored by a royal house.

Quite a big part of the reason why so many Euros are now on the western side of the pond...

[Stan]

In the last 35 years of living abroad I have seen more examples of extreme patriotism (jingoism) abroad than I ever experienced in the military or United States.

It seems too easy for a European to adapt to American ideals for whatever the reasons and it is just as easy for someone like me to adapt to relatively simple gun-related lifestyle changes here in Europe.

The argument that European standardized gun laws are far more stringent than that of the USA is nonsense. I took the safety tests and met with all the local ordinances and still own and possess all the weapons I have owned since the early 70s. It took no longer to do so than it would have in Maryland. Not one time did someone ask me if I was on the verge of blowing a fuse, or was I crazy?

One can obtain a fully automatic AK in Europe faster than one can purchase a pathetic semi-auto AK in the States. It is pure Bravo Sierra to think that all these so-called EURO regs have made the world a safer place. If we are to spout stats to support our point of view, I recommend a few days with our units on this end of the globe.

BTW, it's also against the law to possess and employ explosives in most of the free world and most of the laws prohibiting that have really had an impact on that issue here in Europe !