Side story on the recent gun spree

[carl]

The women at that outdoor range in Austin were using something that looked like a two handed version of an old police crouch and shoot from the hip technique. I never saw that before. Do you guys know anything about that.

VP Biden's advice it to go out of your fort, fire off all your ammunition into the air and hope. He's right though, aiming is easy if your mark is the sky.

What can you say about a guy who figures 2 rounds is enough for for dealing with the unknown coming after you?

[ganulv]

I saw this truck parked outside the library today. What I wouldn't give to meet the owner.

[davidbfpo]

ganulv,

It is a "honey trap".

[slapout9]

move over dudes....

number of women buying guns surges

flash bang holsters ?

yes!

[slapout9]

The women at that outdoor range in Austin were using something that looked like a two handed version of an old police crouch and shoot from the hip technique. I never saw that before. Do you guys know anything about that.

That is exactly what it is. Looks like there was a lot of Jim Cirillo influence in the techniques.

[jmm99]

Based on his book, Guns, Bullets, And Gunfights: Lessons And Tales From A Modern-Day Gunfighter (1996):



and, less formally:



Of course, Jim Cirillo used more than one stance, etc. - depending on context.

Never having been involved in any "Jim Cirillo context", I can only posit that I'd revert to my other experiences with the few pistols and revolvers I own. Each having been fired at least in the hundreds of times, but in different contexts for each handgun; my guestimate is that, in a "Jim Cirillo context", I'd revert to type (prior experience) for each handgun. Hope never to find out.

Finally, some decent comments on Cirillo and others here, Subject: Gun Fight Myths Dispelled (2006)(from p.5: "This was a great thread for talking about what bullets do when they hit people or things. No more 5.56 mm v. 7.62 nonsense."), with this about going from reality to training for reality (the following snipped from p.1):

Jim Cirillo, perhaps America's most experienced living police gunfighter, reported that he saw the front sight of his pistol in such sharp focus during his first gunfight that he noticed the little striations on the front sight of his S&W Model 10 as he felt it recoilling in his hand. Cirillo, though, had just burst out of a mop closet in a convenience store as it was being robbed. He reported that his heart was pounding, his legs felt like jelly, and that he remembered thinking "Who's shooting my pistol?," when he felt the recoil. He still got three hits on three robbers. When Cirillo retired from the NYPD he had been in 17 gunfights that resulted in 11 fatalities as a member of the now defunct, famous, infamous, NYPD Stakeout Squad.
...
>>He still got three hits on three robbers.<< Correction, he actually did better than that. He got two hits each on three different robbers, two of which were partially hidden behind the clerk for the first two shots, and running for the door for the second two. The time was estimated to be three to four seconds total. One robber was DRT, the other two were picked up later seeking treatment at a hospital ER. The old round nose .38 slugs hadn't dropped them even though Cirillo had two good hits on each man. The incident inspired the "Cirillo Drill" at matches and academies. Ray Chapman is reportedly the only man who has duplcated it on paper successfully. Cirillo admits that he's never been able to duplicate the feat again during range drills. Anyway, bottom line is that Cirillo knew he was about to be in a gunfight before the shooting started. The NYPD Stakeout Squad had very good hit percentages compared to most cops, but few of their gunfights involved them being in startle recovery mode. Most of their gunfights resulted after they initiated an armed confrontation in businesses that were being robbed.

Regards

Mike

[Stan]

This from an Arizona biker

I was worried that some Mod would take this down, at least until I saw Mike's recent pics

[Firn]

I wonder what the writer might say if the he reads a sign pointing in the other direction with the words:

Dear friends

My next door neighbour wants to have GUNS, GUNS and more GUNS.

Their home is full of GUNS.

Due to their guns I can not protect you and him from the strongly increased risk to get shot.

...

Sad but true. Extremists are rarely right and that cuts both ways as one should know after having looked at the facts presented in this thread.

[carl]

Firn:

Stan's sign says 'My neighbor is defenseless.' Your sign says 'My neighbor is a criminal.'

Neither is extremist. Both are pithy statements regarding some disagreements about fundamentals amongst the Americans. In my view the two fundamentals and they are these. First, do you have the right to defend yourself, yourself. Essentially one side says yes, you do. The other side says no, you don't. If you believe you do have the right to defend yourself, then you have to the right to bear arms, because if you don't have recourse to arms, you can't defend yourself, McGyver and Jean-Claude Van Damme excluded. If you don't have the right to defend yourself, weapons are not needed. Make not mistake about this issue, in the US the choice is that stark. One side is completely against citizens right to bear any, any arms; check out the gun laws in NYC and Chicago for an illustration of that.

The other fundamental is, do you trust your fellow citizens to act responsibly on their own? One side does, the other doesn't. If you do, the simple possession of weapons by your neighbor means nothing. If you don't, the simple possession of weapons by your neighbor means everything. This particular disagreement is a big one. Again look at NYC for an example of the one side getting the upper hand. The city will send men with guns after you if you sell cups of soda pop bigger than 16 oz. because the citizenry can be trusted to know how much pop they should drink.

What all this comes down to in my opinion is this, will the overarching philosophy directing our system of government be that the individual has primacy or will it be the individual does not and the state has primacy? There is really no compromise between the positions. People in this country realize this and that is why there is so much passion in the debate.

[Stan]

Sad but true. Extremists are rarely right and that cuts both ways as one should know after having looked at the facts presented in this thread.

Firn,

You're dead on the money regarding the "opinions" (not facts herein) within this thread. While my picture is a tad extreme, it points out exactly what most of us herein continue to support and agree with.

Carl could not have put it better.

Sorry bro, but I thought it was both funny and sadly very true. But then, that's just me

[Stan]

The women at that outdoor range in Austin were using something that looked like a two handed version of an old police crouch and shoot from the hip technique. I never saw that before. Do you guys know anything about that.

Carl,
The isosceles shooting stance is still being taught to military at the anti-terrorism courses. It is widely believed that in a "situation" you are most likely to hit your target without actually aiming, tunnel vision, et al.

We also had to place a round at point blank into your assailant's left or right hip while holding him with your free hand. Grab some neck meat, pinch hard, remove weapon from holster and hold it next to your head to aim, and fire into the hip.

Needless to say, I could barely hear at the end of the day. But, it was a blast

[carl]

Grab some neck meat, pinch hard, remove weapon from holster and hold it next to your head to aim, and fire into the hip.

Did that work? i don't like the idea of moving the gun up near my head in what might quickly turn into a wrestling match.

[jmm99]

There is a very clear and sharp contrast between anti-firearms people (Mike Bloomberg) and pro-firearms people ("Mike JMM"). That being said, a substantial group of people (as shown by polling both recent and historical) lie in the middle; that is, e.g., they support some "gun controls", but reject "gun bans"; or may simply be undecided on the various firearms issues.

Thus, the person (whether anti-firearms or pro-firearms) who says: "You're either for us or against us."; thereby unnecessarily creates a lot of opponents. Politically, the best COA is to separate the issues as much as possible, and vote each one up or down.

The "warring neighborhood" signs reflect a total divided situation - for example, as between the constitutional views of this "Mike" and that "Other Mike - where the twain shall never meet.

As an aside, The "Other Mike" has and will have bodyguards (either public or private), who will assure his security and that of his family.

The real question is how does one treat one's actual real-life neighbor. "Do unto him as you would have him do unto you"; or, "do unto him as he does unto you." Actually both answers are correct - it depends on the context.

It also depends on who is a "Tommy Atkins" and who isn't. From Kipling's Tommy:

I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:

O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play,
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play.

...

We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;

While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind",
But it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind,
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
O it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind.

You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.

For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees!

Regards

Mike

Sidebar: Kipling wrote two straight up histories of the Irish Guards (his son, an 18-year old subaltern in the 2nd Bn, was killed at Loos in 1915):

The Irish Guards in the Great War: The First Battalion

The Irish Guards In The Great War: The Second Battalion

Both excellent battalion histories - written by an old pro in the writing game.

[slapout9]

I don't use signs.....I live in a very,very,very low crime neighborhood. This really is downtown Slapout and alot of the guys on the truck (thats what we call em down here) are friends of mine.

[Stan]

Did that work? i don't like the idea of moving the gun up near my head in what might quickly turn into a wrestling match.

Carl,
Once you got the routine down, it worked well. A bit hesitant at first with the slide literally against your face knowing as a southpaw, the spent cartridge was going to hit you right on the nose. The point was to keep your weapon as far out of reach and still be able to aim.

Never got to see what happens when a round goes through the hip. I'm told it should immediately make the assailant collapse.

[ganulv]

ganulv,

It is a "honey trap".

Here is the honey trap!

[Stan]

Hey Matt,
Everything was kind of cool until I scrolled down to a Blackwater logo

Even we have a limit to our madness !

My 12 year old recommended this however

[ganulv]

My 12 year old recommended this however

Good one! It takes all kinds, I guess.

[Stan]

That's priceless and going to be hard to beat!

Now if the Queen was firing from her shoulder instead of clamped down, whoa nellie

[jmm99]

Not this:



This is Polarbear1605 in normal mode.

Her Majesty's benchrest device certainly looks stable, but would appear to be a bit heavy to lug about the range.

She appears more comfortable with the piece than Piers Morgan, but wasn't she something of a huntress in her youth ?

Regards

Mike