Magical Realism and Information Operations

[marct]

Marc,
Strangely enough, while in Korea and taking night courses in Personnel management (read Pysops 101, first chapter) the instructor insisted we read and retain to memory Gregory Bateson's Steps to an Ecology of Mind (1972).
I would later here about Bateson while undergoing DIA mandatory MBTI evaluations. Wow this Sierra really works

Hey Stan,

Cool! I'm glad they remembered Bateson. If you've read Steps to an Ecology of Mind, you might also want to look at A Sacred Unity and Angel's Fear - they are the completions of his work in a lot of ways. I wish he was still alive <wry grin>.

Marc

[goesh]

- are hard to come by these days and I use the term rogue because the current tone and tenure of Academia is decidedly ant-military, anti-Bush and at best, overtly hostile to the GWOT. I've come across some conservative Blogs by Academics who do so anonymously for fear of scorn and even retribution by colleagues. I did follow one professional Anthro blog for a while and the topic of Anthropology per se assisting the American Administration in its foreign policy was brought up and the vitriol expressed was harsh to say the least. On-the-side, hefty consult fees are another matter though.....

Exploitation of the spiritual is a hard sell at best and the Military is not known for fast adaptation - recall the hoopla over SF troops in Afghanistan being told to shave the beards off and get back in uniform. Nope, I don't look for any Shamans sporting fetishes and ju-jus to be leading any patrols to psych out the indigs any time soon nor to be on any operational/policy planning teams either. It's odd if you think about it, not wanting to exploit spirituality when there are tactical advantages to it.

[goesh]

Not that I am trying to upset any Chaplains or people of faith or anything like that, but I don't see how our lethal enemies can have any fear of our God that is bloody and nailed to a cross with thorns driven into his head. This may be somehow connected to our inability to exploit spirituality.

[marct]

Hi Goesh,

Not that I am trying to upset any Chaplains or people of faith or anything like that, but I don't see how our lethal enemies can have any fear of our God that is bloody and nailed to a cross with thorns driven into his head. This may be somehow connected to our inability to exploit spirituality.

Well, I'm not exactly sure what you mean by that, but I certainly wasn't advocating a Crusade in the Bernard of Clairveux sense. What I was suggesting was that, since the Muslim world seems to be split over the issue and there are already supernatural elements in play, that we look at using those elements.

On the issue of that particular deity's ability to generate fear, I would have to point out that the Templars did a pretty good job, as did the Spanish orders.

Marc

[Stan]

Marc,
At the sake of sounding stupid (granted, it's been 26 years since I read that book, but some of his terms are just plain old strange).

The "double Blind" is a tad easy, but Jung and later Bateson (or do I have that backwards) used "Creatura and Pleroma". Yes, I get the bit about living and non-living (you still push the ghost thing two days later herein )

But Pleroma was no djinn or ghost, rather an eternal and/or divine principle (I attended a Catholic school for 8 years - go figure !)

Yep, I know this is all Greek (actually it is), and the Roman Catholics don't do Djinn, but they do at times do ghosts

Hey goesh !

Exploitation of the spiritual is a hard sell at best and the Military is not known for fast adaptation - recall the hoopla over SF troops in Afghanistan being told to shave the beards off and get back in uniform

Dead on the money, the real Army is not ready. I am however happy to say that in Sub-Sahara DIA gave us room so long as our reporting justified such actions and didn't get us killed accomplishing said. That doesn't mean we did spooky stuff, but we went far beyond what most were willing to do, and at times at great personal risk. Then, almost all the other Americans there were Clintons and WE were "necessary-but-never-trusted evil as well as the only team that wondered into the real world (outside of the embassy walls).
Simply put, our results supported our less-than-conventional means and we were later recognized for doing it. Our successors would have some big shoes to fill.

Regards, Stan

[marct]

Hi Stan,

At the sake of sounding stupid (granted, it's been 26 years since I read that book, but some of his terms are just plain old strange).

The "double Blind" is a tad easy, but Jung and later Bateson (or do I have that backwards) used "Creatura and Pleroma". Yes, I get the bit about living and non-living (you still push the ghost thing two days later herein )

But Pleroma was no djinn or ghost, rather an eternal and/or divine principle (I attended a Catholic school for 8 years - go figure !)

Yep, I know this is all Greek (actually it is), and the Roman Catholics don't do Djinn, but they do at times do ghosts

Hehehe. Technically, "pleroma" is the Greek for "afterbirth". In theological / philosophical terms, it's used to refer to the "real", phenomenal world as opposed to the "perfect" world of Platonic ideals (Plato... what a twit!). Anyway, Bateson grabbed on to the terms, as did Jung, and used them partly, I suspect, to confuse people .

Well, the RCs are pretty good (if you get a priest who can .... hmm, better not say that). I think that the Ortodox are probably better in this area - less of a tradition of bureacratic control.

Marc

[Stan]

Marc,
That's even stranger. Estonians have little use for religion, but in the event they have some belief, it would be Orthodox. Darn Russians

The only time an Estonian attends church is to bid farewell to the old year. They don't often do Happy New Year, rather Happy end of the old year. That and the church can't officially perform a marriage, only the Estonian version of the Justice of the Peace can.

What if I were to now to ask them about Djinn ? Wooo Neli !

My 41 year-old girl friend (a tad beyond the Estonian benchmark ) is perplexed by things like MBTI and Psychology. She's a true introvert with such daily statements "If he'd just shut up, I'd be able to think about what he said; Why do we have to decide right now; I can' t give you a good answer unless I have some time to reflect on it!"

But dear, the building is burning down, would be my logical answer

It would appear we have gone way off the IO scenario and of course magic. Nevertheless, I've enjoyed it

Regards, Stan

[marct]

Marc,
That's even stranger. Estonians have little use for religion, but in the event they have some belief, it would be Orthodox. Darn Russians

The only time an Estonian attends church is to bid farewell to the old year. They don't often do Happy New Year, rather Happy end of the old year. That and the church can't officially perform a marriage, only the Estonian version of the Justice of the Peace can.

What if I were to now to ask them about Djinn ? Wooo Neli !

Well, I ran into an Estonian folklorist about 10 years ago (about an 8.5 on the scale, but she was in her 50's ). She mentioned to me that Estonia never really got around to converting to Christianity in the first place, outside of the easily accessed areas. If you copnverted "djinn" to "earth spirits", at least in the outback, I doubt you'd have problems (okay, he slver and onsidion knives *might* be a problem).

QUOTE: Stan Reber: My 41 year-old girl friend (a tad beyond the Estonian benchmark) is perplexed by things like MBTI and Psychology. She's a true introvert with such daily statements "If he'd just shut up, I'd be able to think about what he said; Why do we have to decide right now; I can' t give you a good answer unless I have some time to reflect on it!"

But dear, the building is burning down, would be my logical answer

INTJ - definately - I recognize it <evil grin>. "So, why are you worried anout a little fire? Just walk through it!" <lolol>.

It would appear we have gone way off the IO scenario and of course magic. Nevertheless, I've enjoyed it

Strangely, we actually haven't, although we have gone away from operation potentials / specifics.

"For behold, I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment; in the twinkling of an eye"

As an Anthropologists, especially a symbolic Anthropologists working in the esoteric field of "ooky-spookyness" (), I have to opearate as if all of this is real. Given that operational assimptuin, we end up with all sorts of interesting opportunities and, vide Goesh, limitations. As I mentioned in muy post to him, I'm not calling for a Crusade, but I think it would be a darned good idea to get people who know what they are doing involved in this aspect; especially since they are alreday available in the US forces.

Marc

[marct]

- are hard to come by these days and I use the term rogue because the current tone and tenure of Academia is decidedly ant-military, anti-Bush and at best, overtly hostile to the GWOT. I've come across some conservative Blogs by Academics who do so anonymously for fear of scorn and even retribution by colleagues. I did follow one professional Anthro blog for a while and the topic of Anthropology per se assisting the American Administration in its foreign policy was brought up and the vitriol expressed was harsh to say the least. On-the-side, hefty consult fees are another matter though.....

Take a look at my article in the latest (Vol 7) of SWJ - believe me, as an Anthropologist, I definately agree with you on the anti-military sentiment!

Exploitation of the spiritual is a hard sell at best and the Military is not known for fast adaptation - recall the hoopla over SF troops in Afghanistan being told to shave the beards off and get back in uniform. Nope, I don't look for any Shamans sporting fetishes and ju-jus to be leading any patrols to psych out the indigs any time soon nor to be on any operational/policy planning teams either. It's odd if you think about it, not wanting to exploit spirituality when there are tactical advantages to it.

Honestly, I wouldn't call it "exploitation of the spiritual" at all . I would call it "using all of our allies", and if the djinn want to ally against AQ...

Marc

[120mm]

Hmmmm. Speaking of magical thinking. How can academics dismiss war and war-making as a significant factor in human interaction and still proport to be truth-seekers?

But they demonify it, and drive it from public view, as if that would make it cease to exist.

[Stan]

Greetings Folks !
Slapout, Perhaps Bubba misinterpreted the 9.5 benchmark . What I meant to say, is we begin at or use the benchmark as a base standard. 9.5's almost always have all their teeth In conclusion, we in Estonia use 15.0 as the highest or most prominent position of skirt-watching standards. This is a science and taken very seriously, and lastly by no means magic

From the reverse angle, who are the groups at risk (I think describing their characeristics) that the enemy might be targeting as part of their own PsyOps? I think this is important because while we bring (and try to impose to some degree) our sense of order through science and technology we are competing with not only ignorance and fear (fear of lots of things), but in some cases practices that have lasted centuries because they either work or give the appearance of working.

Rob,
You managed to intuitively apprehend the inner nature of this !
Thanks for A Great Recap !

Regards, Stan

[marct]

Hi 120mm,

Hmmmm. Speaking of magical thinking. How can academics dismiss war and war-making as a significant factor in human interaction and still proport to be truth-seekers?

But they demonify it, and drive it from public view, as if that would make it cease to exist.

I'll be glad to give you my personal answer to that over beers some time <wry grin>. In general, I think it has to do with a fear of chaos and an increasing retreat from the "real" world. Also, I should note, that academia has a longish history of getting shafted and manipulated by politicians and some of the intel agencies - David Price has some good research on this.

One final thing to remember about academics: the modern Academy derives from the medieval church, and there has always been a sense of "sacrality" or "set apartness" that is endemic to it. In the late 1960's and early 1970's, the academy, at least in the social sciences, developed its own brand of "Liberation Theology", basically secular Marxism that had been watered down. This strand, when combined with how you actually get post-graduate degrees and academic positions, has led to an entrenching of that secular theology in many departments. And, as with the medieval RC church, the academic hierarchy and bureaucracy are very leary of the Military Orders.

Marc