Magical Realism and Information Operations

[marct]

- are hard to come by these days and I use the term rogue because the current tone and tenure of Academia is decidedly ant-military, anti-Bush and at best, overtly hostile to the GWOT. I've come across some conservative Blogs by Academics who do so anonymously for fear of scorn and even retribution by colleagues. I did follow one professional Anthro blog for a while and the topic of Anthropology per se assisting the American Administration in its foreign policy was brought up and the vitriol expressed was harsh to say the least. On-the-side, hefty consult fees are another matter though.....

Take a look at my article in the latest (Vol 7) of SWJ - believe me, as an Anthropologist, I definately agree with you on the anti-military sentiment!

Exploitation of the spiritual is a hard sell at best and the Military is not known for fast adaptation - recall the hoopla over SF troops in Afghanistan being told to shave the beards off and get back in uniform. Nope, I don't look for any Shamans sporting fetishes and ju-jus to be leading any patrols to psych out the indigs any time soon nor to be on any operational/policy planning teams either. It's odd if you think about it, not wanting to exploit spirituality when there are tactical advantages to it.

Honestly, I wouldn't call it "exploitation of the spiritual" at all . I would call it "using all of our allies", and if the djinn want to ally against AQ...

Marc

[marct]

Hi Goesh,

Not that I am trying to upset any Chaplains or people of faith or anything like that, but I don't see how our lethal enemies can have any fear of our God that is bloody and nailed to a cross with thorns driven into his head. This may be somehow connected to our inability to exploit spirituality.

Well, I'm not exactly sure what you mean by that, but I certainly wasn't advocating a Crusade in the Bernard of Clairveux sense. What I was suggesting was that, since the Muslim world seems to be split over the issue and there are already supernatural elements in play, that we look at using those elements.

On the issue of that particular deity's ability to generate fear, I would have to point out that the Templars did a pretty good job, as did the Spanish orders.

Marc

[Stan]

Marc,
At the sake of sounding stupid (granted, it's been 26 years since I read that book, but some of his terms are just plain old strange).

The "double Blind" is a tad easy, but Jung and later Bateson (or do I have that backwards) used "Creatura and Pleroma". Yes, I get the bit about living and non-living (you still push the ghost thing two days later herein )

But Pleroma was no djinn or ghost, rather an eternal and/or divine principle (I attended a Catholic school for 8 years - go figure !)

Yep, I know this is all Greek (actually it is), and the Roman Catholics don't do Djinn, but they do at times do ghosts

Hey goesh !

Exploitation of the spiritual is a hard sell at best and the Military is not known for fast adaptation - recall the hoopla over SF troops in Afghanistan being told to shave the beards off and get back in uniform

Dead on the money, the real Army is not ready. I am however happy to say that in Sub-Sahara DIA gave us room so long as our reporting justified such actions and didn't get us killed accomplishing said. That doesn't mean we did spooky stuff, but we went far beyond what most were willing to do, and at times at great personal risk. Then, almost all the other Americans there were Clintons and WE were "necessary-but-never-trusted evil as well as the only team that wondered into the real world (outside of the embassy walls).
Simply put, our results supported our less-than-conventional means and we were later recognized for doing it. Our successors would have some big shoes to fill.

Regards, Stan

[marct]

Hi Stan,

At the sake of sounding stupid (granted, it's been 26 years since I read that book, but some of his terms are just plain old strange).

The "double Blind" is a tad easy, but Jung and later Bateson (or do I have that backwards) used "Creatura and Pleroma". Yes, I get the bit about living and non-living (you still push the ghost thing two days later herein )

But Pleroma was no djinn or ghost, rather an eternal and/or divine principle (I attended a Catholic school for 8 years - go figure !)

Yep, I know this is all Greek (actually it is), and the Roman Catholics don't do Djinn, but they do at times do ghosts

Hehehe. Technically, "pleroma" is the Greek for "afterbirth". In theological / philosophical terms, it's used to refer to the "real", phenomenal world as opposed to the "perfect" world of Platonic ideals (Plato... what a twit!). Anyway, Bateson grabbed on to the terms, as did Jung, and used them partly, I suspect, to confuse people .

Well, the RCs are pretty good (if you get a priest who can .... hmm, better not say that). I think that the Ortodox are probably better in this area - less of a tradition of bureacratic control.

Marc

[Stan]

Marc,
That's even stranger. Estonians have little use for religion, but in the event they have some belief, it would be Orthodox. Darn Russians

The only time an Estonian attends church is to bid farewell to the old year. They don't often do Happy New Year, rather Happy end of the old year. That and the church can't officially perform a marriage, only the Estonian version of the Justice of the Peace can.

What if I were to now to ask them about Djinn ? Wooo Neli !

My 41 year-old girl friend (a tad beyond the Estonian benchmark ) is perplexed by things like MBTI and Psychology. She's a true introvert with such daily statements "If he'd just shut up, I'd be able to think about what he said; Why do we have to decide right now; I can' t give you a good answer unless I have some time to reflect on it!"

But dear, the building is burning down, would be my logical answer

It would appear we have gone way off the IO scenario and of course magic. Nevertheless, I've enjoyed it

Regards, Stan

[marct]

Marc,
That's even stranger. Estonians have little use for religion, but in the event they have some belief, it would be Orthodox. Darn Russians

The only time an Estonian attends church is to bid farewell to the old year. They don't often do Happy New Year, rather Happy end of the old year. That and the church can't officially perform a marriage, only the Estonian version of the Justice of the Peace can.

What if I were to now to ask them about Djinn ? Wooo Neli !

Well, I ran into an Estonian folklorist about 10 years ago (about an 8.5 on the scale, but she was in her 50's ). She mentioned to me that Estonia never really got around to converting to Christianity in the first place, outside of the easily accessed areas. If you copnverted "djinn" to "earth spirits", at least in the outback, I doubt you'd have problems (okay, he slver and onsidion knives *might* be a problem).

QUOTE: Stan Reber: My 41 year-old girl friend (a tad beyond the Estonian benchmark) is perplexed by things like MBTI and Psychology. She's a true introvert with such daily statements "If he'd just shut up, I'd be able to think about what he said; Why do we have to decide right now; I can' t give you a good answer unless I have some time to reflect on it!"

But dear, the building is burning down, would be my logical answer

INTJ - definately - I recognize it <evil grin>. "So, why are you worried anout a little fire? Just walk through it!" <lolol>.

It would appear we have gone way off the IO scenario and of course magic. Nevertheless, I've enjoyed it

Strangely, we actually haven't, although we have gone away from operation potentials / specifics.

"For behold, I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment; in the twinkling of an eye"

As an Anthropologists, especially a symbolic Anthropologists working in the esoteric field of "ooky-spookyness" (), I have to opearate as if all of this is real. Given that operational assimptuin, we end up with all sorts of interesting opportunities and, vide Goesh, limitations. As I mentioned in muy post to him, I'm not calling for a Crusade, but I think it would be a darned good idea to get people who know what they are doing involved in this aspect; especially since they are alreday available in the US forces.

Marc

[Stan]

That would be a good guess, but she won't take the test

Well, I ran into an Estonian folklorist about 10 years ago (about an 8.5 on the scale, but she was in her 50's ).

Yes, Folklore they have, but it depends on the age of the individual you are addressing. Under say the age of 30, they would laugh at you for even suggesting such a thing. Even then, mostly tales and sayings. I had to study this during my language training in Virginia.

There is one thing that comes to mind that ended up reality. Folklore had it that when enemies overpowered the Estonians in the 11th century, those gravely apposed would retreat to the forest and wait for a patriotic front and then join forces defeating their enemy. These so-called forest brothers are now what we call the "Kaitseliit" or in US terms, National Guardsmen. They created battle lines that the Russians didn't think existed. Now flanked and out gunned, the Russians retreated. The Estonian soldiers would return to camp and explain what had taken place and the commander would wonder if he should pass on such nonsense. He didn't but he would later form his own unit, then and even now know as the Kuperjonov Single Infantry Batallion.

In closing, sorry but no Djinns nor ghosts
Have a good evening, I'm outta here !
Regards, Stan

[jcustis]

I'm not sure I'd feel comfortable trying to use it as an active sort of thing personally (although I'm not above advocating its exploration for possible uses) - for me its more of a passive sort of incorporation into understanding the environment which brings forth both the people I work with and those we work against.

I think marct is dead on in his advisory against looking to employ it. That was what screwed up the IO/PSYOP product I mentioned earlier. the Arabic text of "we can see you and find you" (paraphrase) was laid over a watermark of a pair of dark (almost hooded) eyes, and that cast an omniprescent tint on things that made the average Iraqi get spooked/confused over out intentions.

[slapout9]

Slap,

This went down in 1978. I was in the 82d at the time and 1st COSCOM sent a unit down to help recover the bodies.

Things like this are why I caution folks about looking at events in Africa or elsewhere as "out of world" impossible in the "sophisticated West."

Look at Pat Robertson, the 700 Club, and Operation Blessing's gold and diamond smuggling in Zaire or other groups...

best

Tom

Hi guys, busy day at work so I am just catching up on this thread. Tom, you may remember if this was ever proved or not, but wasn't Jones maintaining large deposits in a Soviet bank at their Embassy? I have always thought that religion is one the easiest ways to raise a guerrilla force. Look at Jones they would do anything he said, they were already living in the jungle in what was similar to army compound. One more step with arms from Russia, a little training and oops there goes another country and the US is standing around trying to figure out what happened. I agree completely about Pat Robertson, his Operation Blessing has been involved in several enterprises of a dubious nature.


Stan, the women may be nice where you are, but 9.5 sure isn't much of a selection Bubba wants to know if they have all their teeth? Later guys I am beat.

[Rob Thornton]

The thread has taken some interesting turns, but it all seems related - since you had to start from the original place to get there anyway.

Stan considered the bit about thought processes, then Marc brought up the bit about almost every culture having a recent past (a generation that is still alive) that grew up with some incarnation of the fantastic. Stan then pointed out that anyone below the age of 30 would just shrug it off as being unrealisitc.

Slapout had pointed out the links with the criminally insane, and various folks had mentioned charismatic leaders who for one reason or another had used "magic" like associations to influence populations and groups to accomplish things in their name.

From the reverse angle, who are the groups at risk (I think describing their characeristics) that the enemy might be targeting as part of their own PsyOps? I think this is important because while we bring (and try to impose to some degree) our sense of order through science and technology we are competing with not only ignorance and fear (fear of lots of things), but in some cases practices that have lasted centuries because they either work or give the appearance of working.

I've known some interesting folks that were going to these places to help do other things, but their "competition" was usually from within the group, now we may be talking about competition from outside the group - ex. a group gets targeted by an AQ like group because its conditions fit what they are looking for.

It would not have to be an Islamic terror group. I suspect we will come up against various incarnations of AQ like groups (modeled like) over time. As resources become scarce, and the profit margin for getting to and extracting those resources fall in the black, remote places with groups that had been alienated will become more important. Are those the same groups where the 30 something crowd my still be influenced by "magical realism" or by people using PsyOps to play to / against those beliefs? The enemy has a good targeting process, they have a pretty good understanding of our strengths and weaknesses and the perceptions of the rest of the world regarding us. They work their own IO and PsyOps pretty well. Groups like Hezbullah have a pretty good CA program as well.

The folks I've asked about Djinn here - they are between the ages of 20-40. They are a sampling of the beliefs here - Shiite, Sunni & Yezidi. They are not ignorant in the sense of being cut off - indeed they have better sattelite reception then I do (all we get is AFN with its great commercials), although I do sit with the interpreters sometimes and watch T.V. with them. You could say they are ingorant in that until recently (since 2003) they did not have such access - however I'd argue that U.S. T.V is somewhat narrow as well since they will run the same stories because they are competing for very similiar audiences - we see what they thnk we want to see in order to sell air time.

I think its important to understand these belief systems. It has allot to do with avoiding misunderstandings that lead to bad assumptions and bad decisions.

Also - look at the geography this thread has covered! The discussion has taken us just about all over. I have not heard anybody bring up the Japanese group that tried to gas the subway, and what about all the US (North American) groups? We've got our share of cults, etc. and they are also vulnerable and a reasonable source of manpower, some with good connections.
Regards, Rob

[120mm]

Hmmmm. Speaking of magical thinking. How can academics dismiss war and war-making as a significant factor in human interaction and still proport to be truth-seekers?

But they demonify it, and drive it from public view, as if that would make it cease to exist.

[Stan]

Greetings Folks !
Slapout, Perhaps Bubba misinterpreted the 9.5 benchmark . What I meant to say, is we begin at or use the benchmark as a base standard. 9.5's almost always have all their teeth In conclusion, we in Estonia use 15.0 as the highest or most prominent position of skirt-watching standards. This is a science and taken very seriously, and lastly by no means magic

From the reverse angle, who are the groups at risk (I think describing their characeristics) that the enemy might be targeting as part of their own PsyOps? I think this is important because while we bring (and try to impose to some degree) our sense of order through science and technology we are competing with not only ignorance and fear (fear of lots of things), but in some cases practices that have lasted centuries because they either work or give the appearance of working.

Rob,
You managed to intuitively apprehend the inner nature of this !
Thanks for A Great Recap !

Regards, Stan

[marct]

Hi Rob,

Great summation!

From the reverse angle, who are the groups at risk (I think describing their characeristics) that the enemy might be targeting as part of their own PsyOps? I think this is important because while we bring (and try to impose to some degree) our sense of order through science and technology we are competing with not only ignorance and fear (fear of lots of things), but in some cases practices that have lasted centuries because they either work or give the appearance of working.

There is a general personality type called the "seeker" that was identified in the 1970's. Usually fairly well off, middle class kids who felt that they had no real sense of identity or meaning in their life. These were the main population root of the new religious movements of the 60's, 70's and 80's. I am about 90% certain that this is the main target group in materially affluent areas, outside of the standard "disenfranchised" crowd.

Also - look at the geography this thread has covered! The discussion has taken us just about all over. I have not heard anybody bring up the Japanese group that tried to gas the subway, and what about all the US (North American) groups? We've got our share of cults, etc. and they are also vulnerable and a reasonable source of manpower, some with good connections.

Definately, especially in North America and Europe. You may want to look at a book by Faydra Shapiro called Building Jewish Roots for a model of how these kids can be recruited and chanelized. If I remember correctly, Faydra was looking at some of the more extreme Jewish "revivalist" groups in the late 1980's as an undergrad.

Marc

[marct]

Hi 120mm,

Hmmmm. Speaking of magical thinking. How can academics dismiss war and war-making as a significant factor in human interaction and still proport to be truth-seekers?

But they demonify it, and drive it from public view, as if that would make it cease to exist.

I'll be glad to give you my personal answer to that over beers some time <wry grin>. In general, I think it has to do with a fear of chaos and an increasing retreat from the "real" world. Also, I should note, that academia has a longish history of getting shafted and manipulated by politicians and some of the intel agencies - David Price has some good research on this.

One final thing to remember about academics: the modern Academy derives from the medieval church, and there has always been a sense of "sacrality" or "set apartness" that is endemic to it. In the late 1960's and early 1970's, the academy, at least in the social sciences, developed its own brand of "Liberation Theology", basically secular Marxism that had been watered down. This strand, when combined with how you actually get post-graduate degrees and academic positions, has led to an entrenching of that secular theology in many departments. And, as with the medieval RC church, the academic hierarchy and bureaucracy are very leary of the Military Orders.

Marc

[wondertk]

Let's not forget about "legal anthropology" in contending our enemies. Islam does not consist of just one or two holy books such as the Koran and Hadith. It consists of thousands of books and multiple interpretations of Islamic over time and space--very similar to rabbinical law, in that respect. Therefore, I suspect that competing sects in Iraq will have different intepretations of oral and written contracts and other types of agreements, depending on their version of Islamic law. In fact, puritanical Shias will have different interpretations of legal language than their non-puritanical brethren. In turn, one must be very careful in negotiating truces or other types of agreements among community groups.

[marct]

Good points, Terri. Unfortunately, what I have read of "legal Anthropology" doesn't really inspire me with great hope . It may be better to get a bunch of old style Rabbis and Biblical Scholars (Comp Rel type) together for that aspect of it.

Marc

[wondertk]

Marc,

You are right about legal anthropology. But I think your concerns about legal anthropology may apply to all fields of study in anthropology in that there is a pervasive animus toward helping out government and military. You could argue thereunto that anthropology has a stake in disinformation and deception. There are few anthropologists I would trust.

Bringing in Islamic legal scholars is a good idea, except that trustworthy ones are scarce and expensive.

I think that you should form a special academic advisory consulting firm/think-tank for the armed services rooted in your views about anthropologythe conduct, and prosecution of small wars.

I first started considering the legal anthropology of Islamists when I began studying the case of confessed terrorist conspirator Sami Al-Arian in Tampa. Part of his alleged front enterprise activity involved partnering a think-tank he had founded with USF. This was a legal partnership agreement. Prior to it, key people at USF had been given documents with some rather strange cultural data/language in it about the funding source, another think-tank, of the partnership with USF.

The language clearly shows how puritanical and monolithically doctrinal the views of Sami and his think-tank were. He and his other associates in the think-tank should have been probed further about their views and expectations, but evidently were not.

A Muslim to non-Muslim agreement is quite different in Islamic law than it is in Western law. When you sign a contract with puritanical Muslims, you must be careful because you might be signing a contract with Muslims who believe that a pact with non-Muslims renders non-Muslims subservient to the tenets of Islamic law.

[marct]

Hi Terri,

You are right about legal anthropology. But I think your concerns about legal anthropology may apply to all fields of study in anthropology in that there is a pervasive animus toward helping out government and military. You could argue thereunto that anthropology has a stake in disinformation and deception. There are few anthropologists I would trust.

Now you know I could never use that argument .

I think that you should form a special academic advisory consulting firm/think-tank for the armed services rooted in your views about anthropologythe conduct, and prosecution of small wars.

When I started my consulting company six years ago, I had been toying with getting into the "designer cult" business - seemed like a growth industry . Maybe I should go for that most modern of policy cults - the think tank .

A Muslim to non-Muslim agreement is quite different in Islamic law than it is in Western law. When you sign a contract with puritanical Muslims, you must be careful because you might be signing a contract with Muslims who believe that a pact with non-Muslims renders non-Muslims subservient to the tenets of Islamic law.

A good point, and all the more reason why we should have a number of Muslim legal scholars involved in this entire campaign. Honestly, I'm surprised that USF agreed to that type of "obscurity" in their funding.

Marc

[Bill Meara]

Interesting thread. I was reminded of an incident with the Contras in Central America. A fairly senior USG officer had flown in to harangue them about something. A big meeting was arranged. After the visitor finished haranguing, the top commander said he wanted to discuss a "special problem." He told the Washingtonian that the Sandinistas were training witches and that these women were infiltrating Contra units and putting curses on key commanders. The curses caused small animals to grow in their stomachs. "Julio, go get that thing that came out of the stomach of Wilfredo..." The gringo from Washington thought they were kidding, and he was laughing like a fool. I realized they were serious, and was trying to get him to stop laughing.

The commanders were Central American country folk, and those people have a lot of these kinds of beliefs. Before anyone gets too scornful and superior, it might be a good idea to consider how some of the rituals in OUR religions might appear to outsiders. Incense and holy water come to mind.

For more of this kind of stuff see http://www.contracross.com

[marct]

Hi Bill,

Interesting thread. I was reminded of an incident with the Contras in Central America. A fairly senior USG officer had flown in to harangue them about something. A big meeting was arranged. After the visitor finished haranguing, the top commander said he wanted to discuss a "special problem." He told the Washingtonian that the Sandinistas were training witches and that these women were infiltrating Contra units and putting curses on key commanders. The curses caused small animals to grow in their stomachs. "Julio, go get that thing that came out of the stomach of Wilfredo..." The gringo from Washington thought they were kidding, and he was laughing like a fool. I realized they were serious, and was trying to get him to stop laughing.

There are too many incidents of this sort that have happened; it's one of the reasons I was advocating recruiting practitioners of magic who are already in the US forces to deal with situations like this. That particular incident sounds like a fairly standard witchcraft type accusation. Jeane Favret-Saada's Deadly Words: Witchcraft in the Bocage deals with the dynamics of it quite well, as does E.E. Evans-Pritchard's Witchcraft, Oracles and Magic among the Azande.

What is truly bothersome, is that every time a "Westerner" laughs at something like this, it insults the people who brought it to their attention. What a great way to win friends and influence people.

The commanders were Central American country folk, and those people have a lot of these kinds of beliefs. Before anyone gets too scornful and superior, it might be a good idea to consider how some of the rituals in OUR religions might appear to outsiders. Incense and holy water come to mind.

Too true, Bill. Or how about some of "our" beliefs that we don't consider religious but that others do? Say, equality of individuals, or that strange supernatural being called "the Law" - clearly a supernatural being!!!

Marc