Foreign Language Training & Use

[Stan]

People often forget how quickly languages change.

I wonder if any similar events occur in other languages, particularly those that are spoken over wide areas and with significant local variation, and with languages that are rapidly evolving...

Hey Dude !
Just recently with a trip to Congo I realized how backwards my Belgian French and Lingala were. Kids laughing at you is a pretty good sign you are speaking a dead language.

When I got here in 95 and my first Estonian teacher returned from the States and we had dinner together, she too realized that her three years in DC had left her high and dry with Estonian. She refused to believe that the student had now become the teacher. With less than 1,5 million Estonian speakers in the world, they still managed to evolve leaving their grandparents behind.

It would seem to me that in most situations in Afghanistan knowledge of everyday speech would be more useful than the written language.

To echo Matt, better to concentrate on colloquial language and not worry about written... total different ball game for C2 speakers. Not to throw you under the bus or anything, but with four languages I reached real proficiency in country after about 5 years. That is to say, when they started to accuse me of being Finnish (which is a serious insult reserved for Russians) I knew I was there. Can't get rid of the accent, but can indeed improve on the grammar and speaking skills.

Stay safe Bro !

Stan

[parvati]

Same kind of issues regarding Hindi and Urdu. In the upper classes in Pakistan and India, people tend to speak a mixture of English and Hindi/Urdu. I can totally relate to Mr. Stan for being laughed at for speaking a more formal version of the language - “why are you speaking such pure Hindi like my great-grandfather/Urdu teacher/chai boy from some village”?

In Mumbai, they speak Mumbaiya – a pretty much crude street slang “gansta” version of Hindi (Dawood Ibrahim and Co. speak this kind of Hindi). If one were write a language test in the Mumbaiya version, they would totally fail the writing test and if one were to speak in DLI Hindi on the streets of Mumbai, they would be understood, but laughed at.

Like Mr. Ganulv said, there needs to be kind of a standardization, as you probably know Arabic from Africa vs. Arabic from the Gulf etc.

It is also the case with European languages. If you study classical Italian then good luck understanding people speak in Naples! Likewise with Spanish.

[Tukhachevskii]

Having learned what is euphamistically termed Modern Standard Arabic in the Yemen I discovered to my horror in the Lebanon that most people thought I had emerged out of the dark ages (my skin tone completed the impression of my being a Yemeni interloper). I suppose it's analogous to the difference between Quebeci French and "proper" French! Even in Yemen the variations in colloquialisms and language usage varied from one region to another (esp. in the East) but also between North and South and even cities. MSA is a good place to start, then you really have to start learning

HOLY MOLY! Sorry, didn't realise that jpeg would end up so big...(that's what she said.....)

[xf4wso]

Again, thank all of you for your responses. I have found the issues of register and change over time to be equally interesting in Turkish. With speakers of non-standard (i.e. non-Istanbul) Turkish, for a long time they could easily understand me while I would struggle to make out what they were saying. Older speakers will often use words borrowed from Persian or Arabic while younger speakers will use words based on Turkic roots. However, vocabulary is often an idicator of the speaker's world-view. Leftists will often use "pure" Turkish words, even when they are not in common use, while those of a more religious bent will sprinkle their speech with more Arabic and some Persian, even when these expressions are equally uncommon.

Many of you seem to have a background in what (in the US at least) would be considered "less commonly taught" languages. Your reasons for learning are varied I am sure, but how would you try to encourage students today to study these languages? Many Americans seem to be a bit on the lazy side when it comes to languages where the grammar, vocabulary, pronunciation and/or script are noticeably different from English.

I look forward to your responses!

[Stan]

Many of you seem to have a background in what (in the US at least) would be considered "less commonly taught" languages. Your reasons for learning are varied I am sure, but how would you try to encourage students today to study these languages? Many Americans seem to be a bit on the lazy side when it comes to languages where the grammar, vocabulary, pronunciation and/or script are noticeably different from English.

I look forward to your responses!

Not sure about the rest of us, but learning foreign languages was something I personally wanted to do. The FLPB back in the 70s was abysmal regardless of how many languages and to what levels you managed (about 250 bucks a month max as late as 95). Nowadays, the cap is a cool grand but only for languages the Army wants ! So if money is the deciding factor, then things just got better looking.

We’ve come a long way from the days that one had to take a DLAB to remotely determine if he/she was capable of learning a foreign language and even then, only if that individual’s MOS supported that need. We now know – very late in the game – that the occupational specialty is not so relevant. Probably lost hundreds of great linguists to a bunch of uptight Pentagon staff (that had not a clue what it takes to learn and maintain language proficiency).

BTW, even learning two languages in addition to English as a child, I failed the DLAB while I was in Korea. If not for my CO telling the examiner that I already started to speak Korean after two months in country and conversed with the Swiss daily, I was doomed to fail.

Other than cold hard cash and/or at least a real desire to learn, I have no clue how to motivate the current generation when it comes to learning a foreign language.

[The Cuyahoga Kid]

Other than cold hard cash and/or at least a real desire to learn, I have no clue how to motivate the current generation when it comes to learning a foreign language.

One promising way to do so is providing overseas training deployments for people in the accessions pipeline. US Army Cadet Command has been pushing a program called CULP for some time which (if I recall correctly) had a stated aim of ensuring over 50% of the Class of FY2015 had engaged in some form of direct contact with a foreign culture before commissioning. [That was before budgetary cutbacks however]

I can only speak to the effectiveness of the program in promoting foreign language study on an anecdotal basis, but I had the chance to go along on a CULP Deployment and kept in contact with most of the cadets afterwards. A good amount who had no intention of taking foreign language courses before going on the trip expressed a great deal of interest in doing so afterwards.

[Dayuhan]

how would you try to encourage students today to study these languages? Many Americans seem to be a bit on the lazy side when it comes to languages where the grammar, vocabulary, pronunciation and/or script are noticeably different from English.

I think one obstacle is that many Americans go through much of their youth, often their entire youth, without any serious exposure to a second language. In much of the world that's quite unusual... my 16 year old daughter speaks 4 languages fluently and sees nothing at all unusual or remarkable about that.

I've never seen any scientific studies on the matter and I'm certainly no linguist, but my own observations convince me that people who grow up with multiple languages, or at least have early exposure to multiple languages, find it easier to pick up languages for the rest of their lives. If you get to age 20 with only one language, you're pretty much screwed. It seems like if you get to a certain age with only one way of saying things your brain just locks down on that and has a very difficult time accommodating other ways of saying things. Not to say it's impossible, but the effort involved is far greater than it is for people who have experienced that flexibility from an early age.

My memories of French, German, and Latin are very rudimentary, but I think that having once been at least functional in all 3 made it much easier to pick up Cebuano and Tagalog.

If someone with actual expertise in the matter comes along and tells me I'm full of it I'll gladly concede the point... just how it looks to a rank amateur, albeit a multilingual one.

[ganulv]

I've never seen any scientific studies on the matter and I'm certainly no linguist, but my own observations convince me that people who grow up with multiple languages, or at least have early exposure to multiple languages, find it easier to pick up languages for the rest of their lives.

It's like playing a musical instrument (or learning a martial art or style of skiing or a number of other skills): every time you know one more well,* the next one comes more easily. It is generally thought that children enjoy a full access to Universal Grammar which adults do not, but the evidence is not unequivocal in that regard.

*The caveat is well. Going on to the next one before getting a good grasp on the one you have started tends to lead to confusion.

[Dayuhan]

It is generally thought that children enjoy a full access to Universal Grammar which adults do not, but the evidence is not unequivocal in that regard.

I find it hard to believe that American children have full access to any grammar at all, but that is perhaps just me being a contentious old fart...

[Stan]

I think one obstacle is that many Americans go through much of their youth, often their entire youth, without any serious exposure to a second language. In much of the world that's quite unusual... my 16 year old daughter speaks 4 languages fluently and sees nothing at all unusual or remarkable about that.

If someone with actual expertise in the matter comes along and tells me I'm full of it I'll gladly concede the point... just how it looks to a rank amateur, albeit a multilingual one.

Steve,
This article in the Foreign Policy Journal is right up your alley.

The author painstakingly describes and supports his experience and theories, which generally busts the myth about children learning faster. But he has a point similar to yours... exposure. A good read with some real funny bits !

A survey of people working as professional interpreters would show that 80% of them graduated from less than five universities in the world.

None of them were children.

In conclusion, my theory is if an adult and a child attend the same number of hours of classes, the adult will learn faster. In practice, however, adults have lives. They are busy people, and studying is a kind of luxury, which generally takes second place to work and earning money and taking care of their family.

However, given the same number of hours of classes, an adult would learn a language faster than a child. The proof is Monterey Institute, Defense Language Institute, and Middlebury Language Program, all of which can take an adult student from zero to passing a college entrance exam in a foreign language in just one to two years.

[Dayuhan]

The article talks about learning in a classroom setting, where I would agree that adults would learn faster, largely because they have a longer attention span and can endure more classroom time. Take two adults and two children and put them in a foreign language environment without classes, my bet is the kids will be speaking the new language way before the adults, especially if they are playing with local kids.

When my oldest son was 4 we moved to a place where the prevailing language was one he'd never spoken or heard. He showed no sign of learning it for about 6 months, and then just started speaking it, no accent issues, just chattering away. It was like a bucket filling up and then running over. I can't say all kids learn like that, obviously, but it was an interesting thing to observe. There was no visible "learning process", no "what does this mean" or "how do I say that". I'd guess kids would have a hard time if expected to learn like an adult learns in a classroom, and an easier time learning by pure immersion.

I'd still be interested in seeing data on rate of learning a completely new language in adults that have been multilingual since birth vs adults that have been monolingual since birth.