Foreign Language Training & Use

[Dayuhan]

...unless they are reading books and writing a little, they will not be able to pass a 4+/5 level reading/writing proficiency test because those tests are hard and are at college level or at least high school honors level. So the testers will most probably not pass a person at a native level if one starts speaking a more street version of the language picked in back alleys or slang picked up in high school.

Probably true, but raises another question: do you learn a language to pass a test or earn a rating, or do you learn it to communicate with the local populace?

If all other things being equal, a hard-working, eager to learn monolingual and a lazy multilingual who doesn't put any effort are put in a class to learn a language with no prior exposure, I would think that the monolingual would fare better just by the sheer effort to learn?

This lazy multilingual once learned a language by drinking palm wine in the shade with some helpful, loquacious, and equally lazy native speakers... and learned faster than some people who were sweating it out in a classroom (long story).

I have also found that people generally show more tolerance towards "ignorant foreigners" if the ignorant foreigners are making a sincere attempt to learn and use at least a little of their language. A little truly can go a long way.

Yes

Desire to learn and the willingness to occasionally make a real fool of yourself in public will also carry one far. While the public embarassment may be hard on the ego, it too can be an icebreaker.

Yes again

My personal theory is that if you can make your brain accept the fact that the world can be described and categorized in some amazingly different ways, the next "map of the world" is easier, even if completely unrelated to the first foreign language learned.

That's pretty much my theory as well.

In the context of small wars, COIN, etc. perhaps the question is how do you create, find and/or encourage the patience, mental flexibility and willingness to learn another language and culture as one of the bases for success?

Particularly when there's no way to know what language will be in demand next, when deployments are of limited duration, and in places where security concerns limit opportunities for immersion.

[xf4wso]

In your defense Dayuhan, I do not regard sitting in the shade drinking palm wine as the mark of a "lazy multilingual" - as long as the conversations were in the language you were trying to learn, the palm wine party is legitimate language practice. Perhaps DLI will consider adding it to their bag of tricks to encourage more rapid language acquisition...

[Stan]

I suddenly realized why I liked learning Estonian over Lingala... the social settings

We venture into an underground pub from the 13th century and drink beer and eat garlic bread and chicken wings

That should motivate most of our younger generation providing the Army wants Estonian speakers !

[parvati]

Mr. Dayuhan, I totally agree with you on both points. Learning a language is to communicate with locals and best way is though the play scenario (playing toys when younger, and drinking when older- and after a few, even the locals will start slurring and the linguistic barriers start wearing out).

I was trying to point out that the requirements that the testing that is conducted for linguists by the government (a lot of it outsourced) is skewed in disfavor for those who speak a more street version versus an academic version a language. It is not fair and I have not passed a language test in a certain language despite being fluent because of I spoke too colloquially. The tester was a total snob and none of that would have mattered in a deployed environment. Sometimes it is just based a who scores the test. The DLI website and the "helpful phrases" modules they have for various languages are not really colloquially accurate, you hear some words and think that people just don't speak like that.

Regarding the lazy versus the eager- I think we have to give some credit to the eager ones and like Mr. Xfswo said, attending wine parties is also work if you're trying to speak with locals. Unless there is a drive to learn whether it be through study, music/films or going to medieval pubs etc.etc.. without that will, I personally don't think one can get too far.

[xf4wso]

I am sure that most of you are familiar with Sir Richard Burton, the 19th century British explorer, linguist etc. In the 7 years he was stationed in India he passed the language exams for 12 Indian languages at the highest level. He described his method:

“I got a simple grammar and vocabulary, marked out the forms and words which I knew were absolutely necessary, and learnt them by heart by carrying them in my pocket and looking over them at spare moments during the day. I never worked for more than a quarter of an hour at a time, for after that the brain lost its freshness. After learning some three hundred words, easily done in a week, I stumbled through some easy book-work..., and underlined every word that I wished to recollect, in order to read over my pencillings at least once a day. Having finished my volume, I then carefully worked up the grammar minutiae, and I then chose some other book whose subject most interested me. The neck of the language was now broken, and progress was rapid. If I came across a new sound like the Arabic Ghayn, I trained my tongue to it by repeating it so many thousand times a day. When I read, I invariably read out loud, so that the ear might aid memory. ... whenever I conversed with anybody in a language that I was learning, I took the trouble to repeat their words inaudibly after them, and so to learn the trick of pronunciation and emphasis.”

Long quotation, but the method seems sound and could be enhanced with modern touches like mp3 players, the internet etc. He also encountered the problem of using the colloquial language versus the formal register in testing. So, Mr. Parvati you may take comfort in the fact that you are historically in good company, and in any situation where communication was essential, I would prefer your language skills.

[parvati]

I know of Sir Burton, but what is the name of that book?

Thank you for your kind words. It's Miss Parvati.

[Stan]

Hey Miss Parvati !

It is not fair and I have not passed a language test in a certain language despite being fluent because of I spoke too colloquially. The tester was a total snob and none of that would have mattered in a deployed environment. Sometimes it is just based a who scores the test. The DLI website and the "helpful phrases" modules they have for various languages are not really colloquially accurate, you hear some words and think that people just don't speak like that.

Great point ! I attended a quick Estonian course at Inlingua in Arlington due mostly to having less than 13 weeks before deployment. With that I was sent to State's FSI for testing where I was very unwelcome. My test results at 1+ were insulting although the administrator was Finnish and refused to believe that I had studied for only 13 weeks (of a 45 week course). As my instructors were all real Estonians, they taught me to communicate in social situations, not recite a dictionary.

It would be very difficult for State to conclude that their 45 week program was inferior to a 13 week course right down the street. It has always been assumed that I got the short end of the deal.

Once on station, I would be faced with purported 3+ FSI graduates

Give me a break !

Regards, Stan

[carl]

Miss Parvati & Stan:

I think, based on nothing scientific, that some people are just good picking up new languages. If that is true, how much of the success at getting fluent is due to that? How many people out there are just good at it?

[Stan]

Miss Parvati & Stan:

I think, based on nothing scientific, that some people are just good picking up new languages. If that is true, how much of the success at getting fluent is due to that? How many people out there are just good at it?

Hey Carl,
I feel that it's more about a personal desire to do "it" than anything else. All four of us as children had basically the same means and foreign language background, but yet only I ended up overseas and learned foreign languages. Exposure then took its course with me.

I like this explanation but don't agree with the whole article. Have you ever taken a language aptitude test similar to the one at the link ? Bet you'd be surprised at the results.

Regards, Stan

[ganulv]

My test results at 1+ were insulting although the administrator was Finnish and refused to believe that I had studied for only 13 weeks (of a 45 week course).

It's the cases. Finns refuse to believe that Americans (or anyone else who wasn't raised speaking a Uralic language) can get the cases right.

[xf4wso]

Miss Parvati - My sincere apologies! I can only plead ignorance and my gender bias as regards to this site.

The quotation was from Fawn Brodie's biography of Burton, The Devil Drives, page 44. Unfortunately, she does not cite the source.

Carl - I agree, some people do seem to be naturally more able to learn languages, but I have seen some remarkable results from people who were just plain stubborn, the kind who are determined to put their head through a linguistic wall.

[Stan]

It's the cases. Finns refuse to believe that Americans (or anyone else who wasn't raised speaking a Uralic language) can get the cases right.

Hey Matt,
Actually, there is but one case ending more in Finnish than that of Estonian. As if that were of some comfort

For some strange reason, Estonians can communicate with Finns, but Finns can't do Estonian.

Not too sure why we always get the bad rap as Americans especially considering the fact that most of us are not Indians So, why did our ancestors decide to dump their local lingo and go American ? Football