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Thread: Anthropology (catch all)

  1. #21
    Council Member marct's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shek View Post
    Marc,

    We need a 240V version too so we can plug you guys into local power grids as well when we deploy
    Definitely! And it's got to be better than the 12V version using D cell batteries !

    Marc
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    Moderator Steve Blair's Avatar
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    You also have to remember one of the axioms of PC research - you're doing the work to confirm what you already know is true. One of the most irritating things I've encountered in the history PC community is the smug conviction that the practitioner of PC history somehow has a unique insight to truth just because they happen to be PC or of a specific gender/racial subset. By this I mean that "only a woman can truly understand Women's History", but she is somehow also qualified by this unique insight to pass unquestionable judgment on any other subset of history she happens to encounter (to include African-American History, Native American History, Political Science, and anything else she latches onto). By the same token, this "researcher" (although often of upper-middle class origins) is somehow qualified by gender or race to understand the situation faced by those of a much lower social class, whose lifestyle she may never have seen up close, let alone experienced.

    Sorry...PC always gets my pulse rate spiked.
    "On the plains and mountains of the American West, the United States Army had once learned everything there was to learn about hit-and-run tactics and guerrilla warfare."
    T.R. Fehrenbach This Kind of War

  3. #23
    Council Member marct's Avatar
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    Hi Steve,

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Blair View Post
    You also have to remember one of the axioms of PC research - you're doing the work to confirm what you already know is true.
    Oh, too true! What's that old saying? "Everything has to happen immediately for puppies, 2 year olds and reformers of any age"? I'd add PC theologians to the list. BTW, it this exact axiom that has led me to refer to them as "theologians" - they "know" the "Truth" and anything that disagree with it is "false consciousness".

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Blair View Post
    One of the most irritating things I've encountered in the history PC community is the smug conviction that the practitioner of PC history somehow has a unique insight to truth just because they happen to be PC or of a specific gender/racial subset. By this I mean that "only a woman can truly understand Women's History", but she is somehow also qualified by this unique insight to pass unquestionable judgment on any other subset of history she happens to encounter (to include African-American History, Native American History, Political Science, and anything else she latches onto). By the same token, this "researcher" (although often of upper-middle class origins) is somehow qualified by gender or race to understand the situation faced by those of a much lower social class, whose lifestyle she may never have seen up close, let alone experienced.
    Yupper, that's definitely one of the big ones. One of the problems I've always had with it is that it is actually antithetical to the entire idea of verstehen; which leads me to wonder how any cultural Anthropologist with two neurons to ru together could actually support it!

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Blair View Post
    Sorry...PC always gets my pulse rate spiked.
    Mine too . Someday, when we're in an F2F situation, I'l recount what one of the great female Anthropologists told me (it's on how to distinguish a "true" post-modernist from a post-modernist manquee, but it can't be posted on a public board ).

    Marc
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  4. #24
    Council Member 120mm's Avatar
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    Marc, all, is it time for the invention of another field to supplant Anthropology in the field of military matters? My MA is in International Relations, which was "invented" to supplant political science in the field of post-WWII nation-state relations. I see so many interdisciplinary PhDs these days that you'd think some ambitious fellows could find a school interested in producing some PhDs who saw war as a "normal" state of human existence and would be interested in studying what makes people fight and what makes them decide to stop fighting.

    It seems to me that COIN is the art/science of determining how to make a person/culture lay down arms, or decide not to pick them up in the first place.

    You'd need to call it something, though.....

  5. #25
    Council Member marct's Avatar
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    Hi 120mm,

    This is a really good question - so good, in fact, that I snipped it out to create a new thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by 120mm View Post
    Marc, all, is it time for the invention of another field to supplant Anthropology in the field of military matters? My MA is in International Relations, which was "invented" to supplant political science in the field of post-WWII nation-state relations.
    Anthropology, in many ways, started as a Science of Humanity (Anthropos - Mankind; logos - "authoritative word" or science) for some (e.g. Wilson) and as a Science of Culture for others. Both of these projects were, for all intents and purposes, highly "inter-disciplinary" and neither, to my mind, has ever been completed despite several really promising lines of research.

    While I am not really an historian of the discipline, I leave that to such greats as Regna Darnell, I *think* that one of the main reasons why Anthropology has not developed these lines of research is the limits of the languages we use. For example, much of what we study is "patterns": patterns of action, patterns of thinking, etc., and the relationships between these patterns and certain other factors (e.g. environment, livelihood, technology, etc.). But we use natural languages to describe almost all of this, rather than mathematics.

    We have used mathematics in some instances, e.g. some of the early work by E.B. Tylor (e.g. On a Method of Investigating the Development of Institutions - 1888), most of the material on physical Anthropology, and some statistics in cultural Anthropology (mainly descriptive). Most of our work, however, doesn't use mathematics and this is, to my mind, a real handicap. I think that we will have to get over the disciplinary neuroses about math before we can move forward .

    Quote Originally Posted by 120mm View Post
    I see so many interdisciplinary PhDs these days that you'd think some ambitious fellows could find a school interested in producing some PhDs who saw war as a "normal" state of human existence and would be interested in studying what makes people fight and what makes them decide to stop fighting.

    It seems to me that COIN is the art/science of determining how to make a person/culture lay down arms, or decide not to pick them up in the first place.
    Personally, I would hold that we should treat conflict, including both sublimated conflict such as business and sports and over conflict from politics to open warfare as a natural continuum. The differing "states", probably "quasi-stable equilibria" to use an old functionalist term, would have specific perceptually (i.e. cultural) defined boundary conditions and would probably operate under different inter-culturally defined "natural laws".

    As such, COIN would be one particular engineering application of these "natural laws" in one particular state (an unstable state of "insurgency") whose counterpart would be insurgency theory (e.g. the old Maoist stuff). Each of these engineering applications could, then, profitably be examined in terms of their vector states or attempts to produce change in a particular dimension that defines the boundaries of the state (e.g. security, basic needs, social organization, etc.). If we took this line of thought forward, then the Islamist irhabi are practicing a rather different form of insurgency "engineering".

    You'd need to call it something, though.....[/quote]

    How about "Applied Interdisciplinarity" ? Actually, that's the term we are using for a new journal I'm involved in starting, and it certainly seems to capture the basic idea.

    Marc
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    Marc W.D. Tyrrell, Ph.D.
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    The Canadian Centre for Intelligence and Security Studies, NPSIA
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    "...war as a "normal" state of human existence and would be interested in studying what makes people fight and what makes them decide to stop fighting."
    That's the ticket to sell the need for more Anthropological and Sociological insight and contributions but there are strong vested interests in viewing the Military as an essentially destructive enterprise run by barbarians.

  7. #27
    Council Member marct's Avatar
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    Hi Goesh,

    Quote Originally Posted by goesh View Post
    That's the ticket to sell the need for more Anthropological and Sociological insight and contributions but there are strong vested interests in viewing the Military as an essentially destructive enterprise run by barbarians.
    Unfortunate, but true. I was talking with one of my students last term about this very problem and trying to find an historical analogy that captured my thinking about why "we" (social scientists) should be involved in the current global COIN. As usual in cases like this, the discussion surrounded professional ethics and "morality" which, in turn, led to a discussion of the relative values of individual vs. corporate mysticism. I really believe it's time for someone to post the Social Scientific equivalent of Luther's 95 Theses to the doorway of PC academia.

    Marc
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    Marc W.D. Tyrrell, Ph.D.
    Institute of Interdisciplinary Studies,
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    The Canadian Centre for Intelligence and Security Studies, NPSIA
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  8. #28
    Council Member Tc2642's Avatar
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    I really believe it's time for someone to post the Social Scientific equivalent of Luther's 95 Theses to the doorway of PC academia.
    Interesting, What would you include your theses, if you had the chance to write such a document?

  9. #29
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    Default Maslow Today - What was he on ?

    My Psychology professor on our first day circa 1982: "According to Maslow, an individual is ready to act upon the growth needs if and only if the deficiency needs are met. The biggest human tragedy is that most people simply do what they are told."

    He continued: "This form of reduced maturity is dangerous when coupled with authoritarianism and dominance, as we have learned from Saddam, Hitler, and others."

    Marc, does Maslow have a point in this thread ?

  10. #30
    Moderator Steve Blair's Avatar
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    Count me in for the history portion of same.
    "On the plains and mountains of the American West, the United States Army had once learned everything there was to learn about hit-and-run tactics and guerrilla warfare."
    T.R. Fehrenbach This Kind of War

  11. #31
    Council Member marct's Avatar
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    Default 5 down, 90 to go...

    Hi Folks,

    Quote Originally Posted by Tc2642 View Post
    Interesting, What would you include your theses, if you had the chance to write such a document?
    Tc2642, think part of the answer to that question is in Stan's comment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stan Reber View Post
    My Psychology professor on our first day circa 1982: "According to Maslow, an individual is ready to act upon the growth needs if and only if the deficiency needs are met. The biggest human tragedy is that most people simply do what they are told."

    He continued: "This form of reduced maturity is dangerous when coupled with authoritarianism and dominance, as we have learned from Saddam, Hitler, and others."

    Marc, does Maslow have a point in this thread ?
    Stan, I think the answer is "yes". Tc2642 asked me what I would include in such theses, and I think Maslow's ideas contain some of the answers. So, let me take a whack at 5 thesis statements.
    1. Giants exist so that people can see farther, not to crush inquiring minds.
    2. All knowledge is inherently limited and, in that sense, "false". As such, the goal of any science is not the production of "perfection" but the continual struggle to achieve it.
    3. "Proofs" that can be communicated exist only in limited components of described part of transcendental reality and should never be mistaken for transcendental "Truth".
    4. Information is a difference that makes a difference (Definition by Gregory Bateson).
    5. How we communicate defines both what we are capable of communicating and the limits of information that can be transmitted and received.
    I think I'll leave it at that for now - I have to finish editing a case study for an HRM text book .

    Marc
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    Marc W.D. Tyrrell, Ph.D.
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  12. #32
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Default edifying information

    Marc,
    Strange (well, for me anyway), that Maslow's work (in spite of any support or evidence) enjoys wide acceptance. Never really grasped that, even today.

    Norwood (required reading even today) made more sense to me. Perhaps simpler terms for those without Phds

    Norwood sounded as if he had been divorced three times (consecutively) by describing behavior as insecure, disorganized, disoriented, etc. Already begins to sound like a female was involved.

    With that, I think I'll have a beer

    Regards, Stan

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    Default Thesis Posting

    "I really believe it's time for someone to post the Social Scientific equivalent of Luther's 95 Theses to the doorway of PC academia."

    A big, fat Amen! to that. Islamic terrorists already posted their thesis on the walls of the WTC and the Pentagon using jet liners.

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    Default ERG Theory

    While no theory is perfect this one helped me make sense of Maslov's, which was obviously too rigid. The ERG explains people will sacrifice their existance needs for the good of the group or personal growth (self actualization), which is helpful in understanding terrorist/insurgent motivation. You will not get them to quit fighting by simply providing economic aid, that isn't the real issue.

    http://www.netmba.com/mgmt/ob/motivation/erg/


    How the existence, relatedness, and growth theory differs from Maslow's hierarchy:

    ERG allows different levels of needs to be pursued simultaneously.

    Allows the order of needs to be different for different people.

    If a higher level need is unfullfilled the person "may" regress to a lower level.

    Bottom line it is not a rigid hierarchy, and explains a wider range of behaviors, such as the "starving artist" who may place growth above existence needs.
    (this is paraphrased)

    The best part of this theory to me is it refutes Maslov's, which all of us who have been in the real world outside a labatory know just doesn't apply to the behavior we see.

  15. #35
    Council Member 120mm's Avatar
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    One theory that I've seen that resonates with my "verstehen" and tangentially contradicts Maslov, is the matrix that John Dalmas uses in his "The Regiment" Science Fiction novel.

    There are four basic compartments

    Play - Study

    War - Work

    For the great majority of people, "War" is restricted to a disagreement or at worst, physically fighting. For a few, "War" means the kind where people die. For the some people, "War" overlaps with "Work". For some, "War" is "War". For others, "War" overlaps with "Play". It sounds a little weird, though, to equate "Enemy" with "Playmate", but the parallels can be found, if you look for them.

    Children instinctively know this. I think if you raised kids in an isolation chamber, they'd get right out and "play war" if given the chance. I'm not a psycho-babble kind of guy; this just struck a chord with me, when I heard it for the first time.

  16. #36
    Council Member marct's Avatar
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    Thumbs up T'Sel

    Hey 120mm

    Quote Originally Posted by 120mm View Post
    One theory that I've seen that resonates with my "verstehen" and tangentially contradicts Maslov, is the matrix that John Dalmas uses in his "The Regiment" Science Fiction novel.
    I knew there was a reason we got on so well - we're both Dalmas fans .

    Quote Originally Posted by 120mm View Post
    Children instinctively know this. I think if you raised kids in an isolation chamber, they'd get right out and "play war" if given the chance. I'm not a psycho-babble kind of guy; this just struck a chord with me, when I heard it for the first time.
    I'm not sure if you are aware of this or not, but Dalmas' Matrix of the T'Sel also resonates with Tibetan Buddhism, some variants of Gnosticism (mainly 3rd century Alexandrian stuff and the Cathars), the Zurvanites and, strangely enough, with Neuro-Linguistic Programming.

    I've thought about trying to work some of it into my organizational culture work (it fits really well with concepts such as the "learning organization"). I usually end up not doing so, because the Anthro stuff I use is pretty far out as far as many of the Management people are concerned and I don't want to freak them too badly .

    You are certainly right about the rigidity of the Maslow work, as is Bill. It is way to "linear" in its conception of people's "programming", and it can't account for all too many observations. It think that it is a useful heuristic if we are examining populations, but tends to drop in utility when we get down to the level of individuals.

    Marc
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  17. #37
    Council Member 120mm's Avatar
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    Dalmas, like a few other Science Fiction writers, only write "fiction" because the money is better and you don't have to be as diligent with your references, imho.

    I'm also a big fan of "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance". I especially like Pirsig's attack on The Dialogs. It also explains why I distrust "metrics" and people who need them in order to function. I implicitly trust "The Groove" and "Gut Feelings". I suppose if you broke it down, you could demonstrate, in tangible terms, how "The Groove" works. As in the Combat Tracking thread, Tracking is just Terrain Forensics and could be demonstrated scientifically, but would that be a worthwhile expenditure of time and effort?

    Which brings us to Marc's continual hinting about Anthro's pathological fear of mathematics. I have been dying to hear some examples of how one could apply math into Anthropology. Oddly enough, though I trust my "Gut", I see Mathematics as the highest form of Science. On one hand, it is a powerful tool to demonstrate reality. On the other, it is a powerful demonstration of the "rightness" of the world.

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    Council Member marct's Avatar
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    Default Of grooves, manifolds and things that go bump in the night

    Hi 120mm,

    Quote Originally Posted by 120mm View Post
    Dalmas, like a few other Science Fiction writers, only write "fiction" because the money is better and you don't have to be as diligent with your references, imho.
    Could well be, I don't know the man, although I would love to sit down and drink a couple of pints with him.

    Quote Originally Posted by 120mm View Post
    I'm also a big fan of "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance". I especially like Pirsig's attack on The Dialogs. It also explains why I distrust "metrics" and people who need them in order to function. I implicitly trust "The Groove" and "Gut Feelings". I suppose if you broke it down, you could demonstrate, in tangible terms, how "The Groove" works. As in the Combat Tracking thread, Tracking is just Terrain Forensics and could be demonstrated scientifically, but would that be a worthwhile expenditure of time and effort?
    Actually, it's already been done by psychologist Mihalyi Csikszentmihalyi in his book Flow. For Csikszentmihalyi, being "in the groove" is a balance between skill and challenge in a particular "game field" (i.e. a bounded, rule ordered set of tasks with clear win-lose settings). I've used his work to explain how certain types of ritual activity effect behaviour patterns such as looking for work.

    One of the things I have been interested in doing is looking at the relationship between Flow states and basic forms of social relationships. I haven't had the chance to put that down on paper yet, though <sigh>.

    Quote Originally Posted by 120mm View Post
    Which brings us to Marc's continual hinting about Anthro's pathological fear of mathematics. I have been dying to hear some examples of how one could apply math into Anthropology. Oddly enough, though I trust my "Gut", I see Mathematics as the highest form of Science. On one hand, it is a powerful tool to demonstrate reality. On the other, it is a powerful demonstration of the "rightness" of the world.
    "Hinting"? Nah, I'll make it an outright statement - many Cultural Anthropologists are terrified of any mathematics more complex than descriptive statistics. I've seen this fairly consistently for the past 10 years or so, and I suspect that a lot of people entered Cultural Anthropology so hat they wouldn't have to do any mathematics.

    I find it interesting that you see "Mathematics as the highest form of Science". Personally, I would say that Mathematics is a collection of languages for describing particular components of reality and not a science at all .

    If you want an example of how Anthropology could use mathematics, let me give you one that I have been struggling with for several years (I still don't have it right because I am mathematically illiterate in the applicable dialects ). I have been trying to use set theoretic topology to examine how "perception space" is created within a culture based around basic forms of social relations (they are five of them, including the null set). Now, it strikes me that each of these basic forms is fairly "stable"; probably rooted in evolved neuro-psychology, as are some of the transformation sequences between forms (e.g. Turner's Rites of Passage theory). I suspect, although I can't offer a mathematical roof, that these basic social forms are also extensible though multiple dimensions in the same way as the Platonic Solids are extensible.

    This type of idea, call it a form of "cultural geometry", is really fairly old - the original versions of it were used to analyze kinship patterns in the 1920's, and Tylor used it to analyze cultural institutions back in 1888. But, in part due to the tide of Marxist and Post Modernist thought in the discipline, these works aren't being taught any more, so they are not part of the "received heritage" of many new Anthropologists. When you add in the institutional reality of getting degrees today, you also have to remember that no one who wants to go to graduate school can afford to take classes where they wil get poor marks. This is even worse in graduate school where you can be kicked out of your program for getting less than a B-. So, the end result is that intellectual exploration is not encouraged and you cannot afford to try and get the tools that are needed.

    Marc
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  19. #39
    i pwnd ur ooda loop selil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marct View Post
    I find it interesting that you see "Mathematics as the highest form of Science". Personally, I would say that Mathematics is a collection of languages for describing particular components of reality and not a science at all .

    I'll jump on that band wagon. Science is the systematic study of something. Biological science is biology, the study of faith is theology, etc.. There is no Mathology though you have mathematics it is basically a just another language like Spanish or English. When I put forth that technology is more of a science than math you should see the gray beards sputter.

    I really like the Wikipedia article for science where it says "Mathmatics is sometimes classified in a third grouping, called formal science..." I like that "sometimes"...
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    Council Member 120mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marct View Post
    This type of idea, call it a form of "cultural geometry", is really fairly old - the original versions of it were used to analyze kinship patterns in the 1920's, and Tylor used it to analyze cultural institutions back in 1888. But, in part due to the tide of Marxist and Post Modernist thought in the discipline, these works aren't being taught any more, so they are not part of the "received heritage" of many new Anthropologists. When you add in the institutional reality of getting degrees today, you also have to remember that no one who wants to go to graduate school can afford to take classes where they wil get poor marks. This is even worse in graduate school where you can be kicked out of your program for getting less than a B-. So, the end result is that intellectual exploration is not encouraged and you cannot afford to try and get the tools that are needed.

    Marc
    So... what stops an individual from conducting "Guerilla Learning". That is, deciding what they Need To Know(tm) beforehand, mastering the skill, and then taking the classes in order to get the credit.

    The problem being, you can't be a scientist without the sheepskin. Especially if you want to work for the people who are in charge of War.

    A perfect world would allow someone to apply for the job by demonstrating skill and mastery rather than "punched tickets".
    Last edited by 120mm; 02-21-2007 at 06:11 PM.

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