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    Quote Originally Posted by marct View Post
    Hi GRIM,




    Thanks for the link! I'd definately be interested in reading your paper as well. BTW, Jerome Barkow was my Ph.D. external and I've used a fair bit of evolutionary psychology / sociobiology in my own work. Glad to have you on board.

    Marc
    Thanks marct. There is really a wealth of information by Van der Dennen that would make for some very interesting discussion for those who are interested here. His letter ( http://rint.rechten.rug.nl/rth/dennen/letter.htm ) is a fine example of the pariah status immediately granted those in this area of academia with interests in violence. While I respect the researchers he mentions, read quite a bit of their work at one point, and even contacted De Waal for advice concerning graduate work, I still am critical of the points where the more PC "side" of things seem to be talking past the issues.

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    Hi GRIM,

    In the past, everybody who has propagated the notion that health is something more than just the absence of disease has turned out to be a quack. I am reasonably sure that those scholars who now claim that peace is something more than the absence of war, let me call them the ‘peace and harmony mafia’ for short, will similarly turn out to be the intellectual equivalent of quacks.
    Gods! I love it! I am definitely going to have to read more of Van der Dennen's work!

    Quote Originally Posted by GRIM View Post
    Thanks marct. There is really a wealth of information by Van der Dennen that would make for some very interesting discussion for those who are interested here. His letter ( http://rint.rechten.rug.nl/rth/dennen/letter.htm ) is a fine example of the pariah status immediately granted those in this area of academia with interests in violence. While I respect the researchers he mentions, read quite a bit of their work at one point, and even contacted De Waal for advice concerning graduate work, I still am critical of the points where the more PC "side" of things seem to be talking past the issues.
    The radical PC side has, to my mind, conflated morality with ethics (i.e. confused immediate wish state proscriptions with the "operational rules of reality"). On a purely personal level, I dislike violence. That doesn't mean that I don't know how to defend myself should the situation arise. Maybe it's just a reflex habit inculcated in me by the Baden-Powell mythos of the Boy Scouts, but I do like to "be prepared" .

    I have long held a suspicion that the desire to find a "peaceful way of life" amongst many intellectuals is a result of a radical agnosticism that inverts Christian beliefs and emotionally "requires" them to "find" a "heaven on Earth": a requirement to find the "Peaceful Savage" to warp Rousseau's phrase.

    Marc
    Sic Bisquitus Disintegrat...
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    Council Member marct's Avatar
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    120mm,

    Let me go back, for a sec, to the original question:

    Quote Originally Posted by 120mm View Post
    Marc, all, is it time for the invention of another field to supplant Anthropology in the field of military matters?
    I think that the answer to that is "no"; but with some caveats. First, Anthropology has some excellent tools that can help the military immeasurably in many current situations. Second, the military is already engaged in what be called "direct ethnographic research" already and can benefit both from the analyses we can provide and, possibly more important, from our understanding of how this type of "work" changes perceptions.

    I think it is more likely that what is needed is a specific sub-discipline within Anthropology that deals with "military matters" - Brian Selmeski at the Centre for Security, Armed Forces & Society (RMC) calls it "Security Anthropology". At the present time, Anthropology is probably the most interdisciplinary "discipline" around, but there isn't an institutional base for such a sub-discipline, at least in the civilian academic environment (and it seems quite limited in the military academic environment).

    This lack of an institutional base creates all sorts of problems. First, it means that there is a great big black hole at the end of graduation - where are you going to get a job? Admittedly, you could go to work for any number of military organizations, but there are very few academic positions available. Where are you going to publish? There are certainly some journals that come to mind - Armed Forces and Society being one - but you really need a lot more to encourage the type of critical debate that produces useful theoretical models. Which brings me to the subject of conferences, as in where are the conferences for Security Anthropologists? Answer, there aren't any.

    Without this solid institutional base, you end up with a situation where many of the people who are interested in the area cannot afford to do it full time. Again, lacking that base, you also have the problem that what support does come from the military has a tendency to be focused on very precise "products" rather than on "pure research".

    Now, there already exists a network of military Anthropologists, which is the first step towards producing an academic infrastructure. In addition, most of us already speak, if nt exactly the "same" language, then at least recognizable dialectic variants of the "same" language. If we were to try and create a "new" discipline, we would have to go through all of that all over again and, believe me, that would be a real pain .

    All of which isn't to say that Anthropology, as presently constituted, is the answer . There is still, IMHO, too much PC induced "morality" <growled with acid dripping from my mouth> that permeates what passes for "professional ethics". Some of the AAA "Ethics" guidelines are, to my mind, poorly worded and appear to be based on a "morality of the day" type of thinking rather than on a set of "first principles" that allow for individual extrapolation to deal with new situations.

    For example, Article 2a of the AAA guide says:
    Anthropologists should not communicate findings secretly to some and withhold them from others.
    and article 3a an 1g state:
    Anthropologists should undertake no secret research or any research whose results cannot be freely derived and publicly reported.

    In accordance with the Association's general position on clandestine and secret research, no reports should be provided to sponsors that are not also available to the general public and, where practicable, to the population studied.
    Now, if we look at this in light of the Human Terrain Teams (HTT) that are being deployed to Iraq soon, we see an interesting problem. If I was a member of one of these teams, I could not identify any individuals involved in any particular terrorist / insurgent network unless I also informed them that they had been identified.

    This is exacerbated by article 1a
    Where research involves the acquisition of material and information transferred on the assumption of trust between persons, it is axiomatic that the rights, interests, and sensitivities of those studied must be safeguarded.
    Notice that there is an inbuilt assumption that I would be receiving the information from the same people I am studying? This assumption creates all sorts of nightmares that could have been avoided by changing "those studied" to "your informants". What if I am studying terrorist / insurgent networks in Iraq and I am getting my information from a variety of sources including both direct observation as wel as people on the ground?

    Finally, article 6 states:
    In relation with their own government and with host governments, research anthropologists should be honest and candid. They should demand assurance that they will not be required to compromise their professional responsibilities and ethics as a condition of their permission to pursue research. Specifically, no secret research, no secret reports or debriefings of any kind should be agreed to or given. If these matters are clearly understood in advance, serious complications and misunderstandings can generally be avoided.
    Now, just to make matters worse (), "advocacy" is not only allowed but encouraged. There is an often unstated assumption that "advocacy" will be for an oppressed group, since that tends to be who we work with (hey, everyone is oppressed, right? ). However, if I choose to work with a seriously oppressed group, let's say US military personnel embedded in Iraq units, I will probably be put onto the wrack.

    Now, despite my somewhat acid comments, I actually agree with the vast majority of the first principles that are embodied the AAA code of ethics (surprise!). Where I disagree is with wording and interpretation that assumes I hold both a moral, and economic, position based in academia. I, personally, believe that the MB inspired irhabi, including their AQ descendants, are an incarnation of evil and I feel no ethical compulsion to inform them about any work I may do that will lead to their downfall. And, given their penetration of North American universities, I find that the requirement to inform those I study, should I study them, to be insane. I have certainly done so with the groups I have studied in the past but this groups is, to my mind, diametrically opposed to my own personal understanding of transcendent ethics as, I believe, they have shown time and time again.

    After that rambling, tangential, diatribe, let's go back to your original question:

    Quote Originally Posted by 120mm View Post
    Marc, all, is it time for the invention of another field to supplant Anthropology in the field of military matters?
    No. We need to rework the institutional and ethical base of Anthropology to deal with this area.

    Marc
    Sic Bisquitus Disintegrat...
    Marc W.D. Tyrrell, Ph.D.
    Institute of Interdisciplinary Studies,
    Senior Research Fellow,
    The Canadian Centre for Intelligence and Security Studies, NPSIA
    Carleton University
    http://marctyrrell.com/

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    Default The other other Camalot.

    Quote Originally Posted by marct View Post
    120mm,

    For example, Article 2a of the AAA guide says:
    Anthropologists should not communicate findings secretly to some and withhold them from others.
    and article 3a an 1g state:
    [INDENT]Anthropologists should undertake no secret research or any research whose results cannot be freely derived and publicly reported.


    Marc
    Sounds like the Camalot project had a few negative consequences.
    It is right to learn, even from one's enemies
    Ovid

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    Council Member marct's Avatar
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    Talking

    Hi Mondor,

    Quote Originally Posted by Mondor View Post
    Sounds like the Camalot project had a few negative consequences.
    More than a few! Actually, it was one of the projects that destroyed the last vestiges of Anthropology working with the intel / military sector. David Price's articles (referenced in my SWJ article) deal with this in great detail if you are interested.

    Marc
    Sic Bisquitus Disintegrat...
    Marc W.D. Tyrrell, Ph.D.
    Institute of Interdisciplinary Studies,
    Senior Research Fellow,
    The Canadian Centre for Intelligence and Security Studies, NPSIA
    Carleton University
    http://marctyrrell.com/

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    Council Member MountainRunner's Avatar
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    Default Ostracizing Anthropologists

    Quote Originally Posted by marct View Post
    Actually, it was one of the projects that destroyed the last vestiges of Anthropology working with the intel / military sector. David Price's articles (referenced in my SWJ article) deal with this in great detail if you are interested.
    Marc,
    I haven't read David Price's article (or your SWJ article I'm sorry to say, but I'd appreciate a link ), but I'm sure you've read Montgomery McFate's article "Anthropology and Counterinsurgency: The Strange Story of their Curious Relationship"? (available here). McFate mentions an ostracized anthro:

    Anthropologist Gerald Hickey explored the indigenous Vietnamese cultural
    concept of accommodation. While Taoist roots of the Vietnamese value system stressed individualism, in the Vietnamese worldview, accommodation was
    also necessary to restore harmony with the universe. In Washington, D.C., Hickey’s views on accommodation were treated as heresy. In 1967, at the conclusion of Hickey’s brief to a Pentagon audience, Richard Holbrooke said, “What you’re saying, Gerry, is that we’re not going to win a military victory in
    Vietnam.” Because it did not conform to the prevailing view of the conflict, Hickey’s message was promptly dismissed...Hickey was awarded the medal for Distinguished Public Service by Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara. Despite his medal (or perhaps because of it), Hickey was not able to get an
    academic job when he returned to the United States. He was refused a position at the University of Chicago by fellow anthropologists who objected to his association with RAND. Ironically, Hickey was also forced out of
    RAND because it was no longer interested in counterinsurgency.

    And then there's a "movement" (?) to continue this institutional culture clash:
    The fact that Kilcullen and others are eager to commit social-science knowledge to goals established by the Defense Department and the CIA is indicative of a new anthropology of insurgency. Anthropology under these circumstances appears as just another weapon to be used on the battlefield — not as a tool for building bridges between peoples, much less as a mirror that we might use to reflect upon the nature of our own society.
    See Fighting the militarization of anthropology for more on Kilcullen=bad.

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    Council Member Mondor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 120mm View Post
    Marc, all, is it time for the invention of another field to supplant Anthropology in the field of military matters?
    Hasn't that already been done? Anthropology and Sociology are closely related; in fact I have seen a few universities that have joint Anthropology and Sociology departments. It would seem that if a person wants to practice traditional anthropological work and avoid all of the institutionalized anti-military and anti-government bias of the Anthropology world all one has to do is call ones self a Sociologist.

    At least that is the way it seems from this layman’s perspective. Does that argument have any validity?
    Last edited by Mondor; 03-05-2007 at 09:58 PM. Reason: typo
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    Cool Ptomaine Chickens and Fecal Grubs

    Tom and I gave them rice and chicken which, probably is banned by the Geneva Convention
    Those EU donated chickens that we ended up buying on the black market after who knows how many thaws and refreezes probably would be a violation

    But as you recall, no one complained and besides even at their worst, those chickens smelled better that those feces fed grubs our drivers used to munch on for lunch...

    Tom

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    Default UN Chickens ?

    Hey Tom !
    Now don't get Marc going. He recently promised me a Canadian student (for the US Army). Frozen, et al.

    As I recall from my 5th group days after the '3-day map reading course' at Bragg, we at least had a choice between a chicken or a rabbit. They were to some extent still alive. Who cares ?

    But as you recall, no one complained and besides even at their worst, those chickens smelled better that those feces fed grubs our drivers used to munch on for lunch...
    You know, those grubs were still alive, and served on toast every A.M.

    The EU chickens...however...Well, another story. Hmmm, got me thinking why they were always missing the left leg

    I was always partial to the fries in front of the embassy freshly wrapped in unclas message traffic from the previous day

    PS. Your pics left this morning.

    Regards, Stan

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    Default SOS Congo Style

    You know, those grubs were still alive, and served on toast every A.M.
    I am happy to say that in all my years as a FAO I never felt compelled to sample the grubs on toast--gives new meaning to the old GI term "SOS" for breakfast..

    For those who are not familiar with this particular delicacy, the Congolese used to grow these grubs in "honey pots". They would toss 'em on a hot griddle just enough to wake 'em up and serve on toast still wiggling, The post-prandial aroma of our drivers after their lunch was eye-watering.


    The EU chickens...however...Well, another story. Hmmm, got me thinking why they were always missing the left leg
    They were truly sad specimens of EU poultry science...

    I was always partial to the fries in front of the embassy freshly wrapped in unclas message traffic from the previous day
    That was part of the Comm center's "think green" program I am sure


    Thanks for shipping the photos!

    Best

    Tom

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    Council Member marct's Avatar
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    Default The Fate of McFate at SavageMinds

    On the continuing debate inside Anthropology.

    The Fate of McFate: Anthropology’s Relationship with the Military Revisited

    Back in January, Matthew Stannard at the SF Chronicle, having come across my SM piece Anthropologists as Counter-Insurgents, contacted me about doing an interview for an upcoming profile on Montgomery McFate, the advocate for anthropology in the military whose work I was responding to. The piece is now online, entitled Montgomery McFate’s Mission: Can one anthropologist possibly steer the course in Iraq?. I’m not quite ready to revisit this topic—I’m up to my neck in grading and other work, with the semester’s end a week-and-a-half away, but I thought I’d mention it now while I put together some further thoughts on the matter. It’s a fairly good article, even though I’m only quoted once (Stannard apparently has not been taught the maxim that the more quotes of me a paper has, the better it is). Interestingly, though the interview ranged all over, I’m quoted more in my capacity as historian of anthropology than in my—I think more relevant—role as anthropological ethicist.
    Sic Bisquitus Disintegrat...
    Marc W.D. Tyrrell, Ph.D.
    Institute of Interdisciplinary Studies,
    Senior Research Fellow,
    The Canadian Centre for Intelligence and Security Studies, NPSIA
    Carleton University
    http://marctyrrell.com/

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    Default Mark, Can you check the link?

    I think the second link is bad, can you check?
    thanks

  13. #13
    Council Member marct's Avatar
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    Hi Cori,

    Quote Originally Posted by Cori View Post
    I think the second link is bad, can you check?
    thanks
    I think their server is really slow! try

    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...MGHQP19VD1.DTL

    If that doesn't work, I can email you the entire story.

    Marc
    Sic Bisquitus Disintegrat...
    Marc W.D. Tyrrell, Ph.D.
    Institute of Interdisciplinary Studies,
    Senior Research Fellow,
    The Canadian Centre for Intelligence and Security Studies, NPSIA
    Carleton University
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    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Default This is hardly anthropology’s problem-

    Hi Marc,

    but it is a good indication of the military’s problem, and why those anthropologists who have cooperated with the military have often come to regret it. To return to my imagined example above, the military is committed to invade the region our researcher’s expertise is in, regardless of the quality of their intelligence.
    I personally think it's a relations issue. The military are not trained to get along with their Anthropologists in order to get the job done, and our politicians are also not interested in why Dr. Johnny won't go !

    I realize that perhaps somewhere in history this was often the case. Your recent and detailed analysis was excellent in covering that subject.

    Did we truly invade Iraq based on knowledge gained from Anthropologists ?

    Now that we are indeed 'there', what's the opinion ? Is it now OK to assist and make the situation less painful, make it 'go away' smoother, faster, and without further regret ?

    My rotations in Afghanistan were not graced with experts, and the learning curve was steep. By the 3rd rotation, our teams were functioning well. Would it have hurt one's pride to get us going faster with far less risk ? I would have loved someone getting me ahead of the game without further loss of life. That's my Bravo-Sierra-Bible-Study take.

    As I reflect on the years of experience in Sub-Sahara, Tom and I were always in a sense 'used'. Yes, we knew it from the start. It may not have always been pleasant, but we convinced ourselves that, what we were doing was better than standing on the sidelines watching things go to hell, when we could have prevented it.

    Thanks, I enjoyed the article !
    Last edited by Stan; 04-30-2007 at 09:14 PM.

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    Council Member marct's Avatar
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    Default

    Hi Stan,

    Sorry for the delayed reply...

    Quote Originally Posted by Stan View Post
    I personally think it's a relations issue. The military are not trained to get along with their Anthropologists in order to get the job done, and our politicians are also not interested in why Dr. Johnny won't go !
    True and, let's face it, there are some serious disconnects with how the military and Anthropology view the world .

    Quote Originally Posted by Stan View Post
    I realize that perhaps somewhere in history this was often the case. Your recent and detailed analysis was excellent in covering that subject.

    Did we truly invade Iraq based on knowledge gained from Anthropologists ?
    Thanks, Stan. Information from Anthropologists, specifically some cultural insights from a book published in the 1960's, was used in some cases. The invasion certainly was not "based on" anthropology - in fact, the vast majority of Anthropologists opposed the Iraqi war and would have nothing to do with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stan View Post
    Now that we are indeed 'there', what's the opinion ? Is it now OK to assist and make the situation less painful, make it 'go away' smoother, faster, and without further regret ?
    In a word - "poor". There are serious problems getting anyone to work on the Human Terrain Teams, anyone who tries to work with the military is subject to be ostracized by PC radicals, and the vast majority of Anthropologists just don't want to have anything to do with it. Assisting now is viewed as being a "traitor to the discipline" by some of the extremist, and highly vocal, PC crowd.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stan View Post
    My rotations in Afghanistan were not graced with experts, and the learning curve was steep. By the 3rd rotation, our teams were functioning well. Would it have hurt one's pride to get us going faster with far less risk ? I would have loved someone getting me ahead of the game without further loss of life. That's my Bravo-Sierra-Bible-Study take.
    Afghanistan is somewhat different from Iraq, although there is still a lot of negativity attached to it. I was actually involved in a project for CIDA at the time, tracking world opinion of what was happening in Afghanistan, and it became pretty clear to me that many government agencies, at least in Canada, didn't want Anthropologists involved.

    You know, in some ways we are dealing with a situation where Anthropology has backed itself into a corner. First, yelling "Hands Off!!!" in the 1960-70's to governments established a situation where these agencies wouldn't think of Anthropology. Later on, when people start realizing how useful we could be, the radicals who were yelling "Hands Off" are now the senior members of the discipline and, as with old generals, they are always ready to fight the last war .

    Quote Originally Posted by Stan View Post
    As I reflect on the years of experience in Sub-Sahara, Tom and I were always in a sense 'used'. Yes, we knew it from the start. It may not have always been pleasant, but we convinced ourselves that, what we were doing was better than standing on the sidelines watching things go to hell, when we could have prevented it.
    Yeah, I understand the feeling .

    Marc
    Sic Bisquitus Disintegrat...
    Marc W.D. Tyrrell, Ph.D.
    Institute of Interdisciplinary Studies,
    Senior Research Fellow,
    The Canadian Centre for Intelligence and Security Studies, NPSIA
    Carleton University
    http://marctyrrell.com/

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    Small Wars Journal SWJED's Avatar
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    Default The Dangerous Militarisation of Anthropology

    Well damn, Dr. Marc heads off to Europe and those guys / girls at antropologi.info go and post this:

    The Dangerous Militarisation of Anthropology

    On 15 December 2006 the US Army released a new counterinsurgency manual, FM 3-24. At least one anthropologist played a role in preparing the 282-page document: Montgomery McFate. Anthropological knowledge is even considered as more important than bombs: Military generals call for for "culturally informed occupation" and ‘culture-centric warfare’. But this development undermines and endangers the work of anthropologists and will end up harming the entire discipline, Roberto J. Gonz&#225;lez and David Price write in the June issue of Anthropology Today (not yet published)...

    What are the consequences of anthropologists engaging in counterinsurgency work? It's obvious that it both undermines and endangers the work of anthropologists and the life of their families and informants: It is plausible, Gonzales argues, that ‘once Thai peasants or Somali clansmen learn that some anthropologists are secretly working for the US government, they begin to suspect all other anthropologists. Fieldwork will be a lot more dangerous...

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    Default

    What else can I say but....

    If they're using "informants" it's obvious that they're up to something shady to begin with. With all that cultural subversion going on maybe someone should write a counterpiece called "The Dangerous Anthropologization of the Military" and how we're all going to "go native" and live in strange vine-covered compounds at the end of rivers with Dennis Hopper taking pictures of us while we write bad poetry and mutter "the horror" over and over again....

    Sorry...seemed like the only immediate response to this piece. Maybe Marc will have something to say once he gets back in-theater.
    "On the plains and mountains of the American West, the United States Army had once learned everything there was to learn about hit-and-run tactics and guerrilla warfare."
    T.R. Fehrenbach This Kind of War

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    Anthropologists have been used in the first world war and the vietnam war by the Americans. Not to mention in South America. As well Ruth Benedict was contracted to research Japan during ww2.

    It does undermine anthropologists everywhere. As well I have read about programs in place in the US where you get your anthropology degree paid for if you work for the government after (this was a few years ago so the details escape me).

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    Default See MarcT's article in Vol 7 of the mag

    Hi FL--

    You need to look at MarcT's article in Vol 7 of the mag and the reply to it in Vol 8. Then go to the 2 threads generated for a more complete picture. Your comment is correct but it is amplified in those locations.

    Cheers

    JohnT

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    Cool Ain't academics wonderful?

    Academics are so much fun, especially social scientists, and among them, anthropologists. Some of them really are paranoid. They just know the military, government, CIA, industrial complex is out to get them. Not too bright though: don't they realize that the real power is now in the hands of the DNI? And he's just waiting to pounce on any naive and unsuspecting anthro grad student with MONEY while he gets his PhD in exchange for going to work for one of the DNI's community members as an analyst where he will be paid better than in academia and have as many or more opportunities for research. Oh, he won't be discouraged from doing a little adjunct work at the universities in the DC area, either.

    Sounds just like a real raw deal to me!

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