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Thread: Anthropology (catch all)

  1. #41
    Council Member 120mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marct View Post
    Actually, it's already been done by psychologist Mihalyi Csikszentmihalyi in his book Flow. For [SIZE=-1]Csikszentmihalyi, being "in the groove" is a balance between skill and challenge in a particular "game field" (i.e. a bounded, rule ordered set of tasks with clear win-lose settings). I've used his work to explain how certain types of ritual activity effect behaviour patterns such as looking for work.

    One of the things I have been interested in doing is looking at the relationship between Flow states and basic forms of social relationships. I haven't had the chance to put that down on paper yet, though <sigh>.

    Marc
    I will attest to that. When I am "on", women make eye contact, smile and otherwise flirt. If I am not "on", I don't exist, in their eyes.

    Likewise with mechanical things. I sometimes fabricate parts for machines, and if I am "happy", nothing goes wrong. I can work for hours and even my sloppy tries end up being "right".

    Same thing with tracking or navigation. I've followed critters or folks without even looking for sign. Or at a map, if I need to get somewhere.

  2. #42
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    Hi all,
    This looks like an interesting thread, so I signed up to add to it. I did my undergraduate work in anthropology and completed a year of doctoral work before my health shut me down. Violence and warfare are primary interests of mine, particularly the synthesis of biological/evolutionary approaches with realistic (not dogmatic and PC) cultural anthropology. I wrote a short paper on this if anyone is interested. Violence and warfare are as "natural" as any other human behavior and the tools of the anthropologist can be very effective in studying them if the individual's approach is not tainted by their "politics." Unfortunately, those who study these subjects looking for answers and not just PC ones become pariahs in the Ivory Tower very quickly, although there are some exceptions.

    Here are some papers by peace researcher Johann van der Dennen, as well as his entire book the Origin of War: http://rint.rechten.rug.nl/rth/dennen/dennen3.htm

  3. #43
    Council Member marct's Avatar
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    120mm,

    Let me go back, for a sec, to the original question:

    Quote Originally Posted by 120mm View Post
    Marc, all, is it time for the invention of another field to supplant Anthropology in the field of military matters?
    I think that the answer to that is "no"; but with some caveats. First, Anthropology has some excellent tools that can help the military immeasurably in many current situations. Second, the military is already engaged in what be called "direct ethnographic research" already and can benefit both from the analyses we can provide and, possibly more important, from our understanding of how this type of "work" changes perceptions.

    I think it is more likely that what is needed is a specific sub-discipline within Anthropology that deals with "military matters" - Brian Selmeski at the Centre for Security, Armed Forces & Society (RMC) calls it "Security Anthropology". At the present time, Anthropology is probably the most interdisciplinary "discipline" around, but there isn't an institutional base for such a sub-discipline, at least in the civilian academic environment (and it seems quite limited in the military academic environment).

    This lack of an institutional base creates all sorts of problems. First, it means that there is a great big black hole at the end of graduation - where are you going to get a job? Admittedly, you could go to work for any number of military organizations, but there are very few academic positions available. Where are you going to publish? There are certainly some journals that come to mind - Armed Forces and Society being one - but you really need a lot more to encourage the type of critical debate that produces useful theoretical models. Which brings me to the subject of conferences, as in where are the conferences for Security Anthropologists? Answer, there aren't any.

    Without this solid institutional base, you end up with a situation where many of the people who are interested in the area cannot afford to do it full time. Again, lacking that base, you also have the problem that what support does come from the military has a tendency to be focused on very precise "products" rather than on "pure research".

    Now, there already exists a network of military Anthropologists, which is the first step towards producing an academic infrastructure. In addition, most of us already speak, if nt exactly the "same" language, then at least recognizable dialectic variants of the "same" language. If we were to try and create a "new" discipline, we would have to go through all of that all over again and, believe me, that would be a real pain .

    All of which isn't to say that Anthropology, as presently constituted, is the answer . There is still, IMHO, too much PC induced "morality" <growled with acid dripping from my mouth> that permeates what passes for "professional ethics". Some of the AAA "Ethics" guidelines are, to my mind, poorly worded and appear to be based on a "morality of the day" type of thinking rather than on a set of "first principles" that allow for individual extrapolation to deal with new situations.

    For example, Article 2a of the AAA guide says:
    Anthropologists should not communicate findings secretly to some and withhold them from others.
    and article 3a an 1g state:
    Anthropologists should undertake no secret research or any research whose results cannot be freely derived and publicly reported.

    In accordance with the Association's general position on clandestine and secret research, no reports should be provided to sponsors that are not also available to the general public and, where practicable, to the population studied.
    Now, if we look at this in light of the Human Terrain Teams (HTT) that are being deployed to Iraq soon, we see an interesting problem. If I was a member of one of these teams, I could not identify any individuals involved in any particular terrorist / insurgent network unless I also informed them that they had been identified.

    This is exacerbated by article 1a
    Where research involves the acquisition of material and information transferred on the assumption of trust between persons, it is axiomatic that the rights, interests, and sensitivities of those studied must be safeguarded.
    Notice that there is an inbuilt assumption that I would be receiving the information from the same people I am studying? This assumption creates all sorts of nightmares that could have been avoided by changing "those studied" to "your informants". What if I am studying terrorist / insurgent networks in Iraq and I am getting my information from a variety of sources including both direct observation as wel as people on the ground?

    Finally, article 6 states:
    In relation with their own government and with host governments, research anthropologists should be honest and candid. They should demand assurance that they will not be required to compromise their professional responsibilities and ethics as a condition of their permission to pursue research. Specifically, no secret research, no secret reports or debriefings of any kind should be agreed to or given. If these matters are clearly understood in advance, serious complications and misunderstandings can generally be avoided.
    Now, just to make matters worse (), "advocacy" is not only allowed but encouraged. There is an often unstated assumption that "advocacy" will be for an oppressed group, since that tends to be who we work with (hey, everyone is oppressed, right? ). However, if I choose to work with a seriously oppressed group, let's say US military personnel embedded in Iraq units, I will probably be put onto the wrack.

    Now, despite my somewhat acid comments, I actually agree with the vast majority of the first principles that are embodied the AAA code of ethics (surprise!). Where I disagree is with wording and interpretation that assumes I hold both a moral, and economic, position based in academia. I, personally, believe that the MB inspired irhabi, including their AQ descendants, are an incarnation of evil and I feel no ethical compulsion to inform them about any work I may do that will lead to their downfall. And, given their penetration of North American universities, I find that the requirement to inform those I study, should I study them, to be insane. I have certainly done so with the groups I have studied in the past but this groups is, to my mind, diametrically opposed to my own personal understanding of transcendent ethics as, I believe, they have shown time and time again.

    After that rambling, tangential, diatribe, let's go back to your original question:

    Quote Originally Posted by 120mm View Post
    Marc, all, is it time for the invention of another field to supplant Anthropology in the field of military matters?
    No. We need to rework the institutional and ethical base of Anthropology to deal with this area.

    Marc
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  4. #44
    Council Member marct's Avatar
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    Hi GRIM,

    Quote Originally Posted by GRIM View Post
    Hi all,
    This looks like an interesting thread, so I signed up to add to it. I did my undergraduate work in anthropology and completed a year of doctoral work before my health shut me down. Violence and warfare are primary interests of mine, particularly the synthesis of biological/evolutionary approaches with realistic (not dogmatic and PC) cultural anthropology. I wrote a short paper on this if anyone is interested. Violence and warfare are as "natural" as any other human behavior and the tools of the anthropologist can be very effective in studying them if the individual's approach is not tainted by their "politics." Unfortunately, those who study these subjects looking for answers and not just PC ones become pariahs in the Ivory Tower very quickly, although there are some exceptions.

    Here are some papers by peace researcher Johann van der Dennen, as well as his entire book the Origin of War: http://rint.rechten.rug.nl/rth/dennen/dennen3.htm

    Thanks for the link! I'd definately be interested in reading your paper as well. BTW, Jerome Barkow was my Ph.D. external and I've used a fair bit of evolutionary psychology / sociobiology in my own work. Glad to have you on board.

    Marc
    Sic Bisquitus Disintegrat...
    Marc W.D. Tyrrell, Ph.D.
    Institute of Interdisciplinary Studies,
    Senior Research Fellow,
    The Canadian Centre for Intelligence and Security Studies, NPSIA
    Carleton University
    http://marctyrrell.com/

  5. #45
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    Default Greetings Grim !

    Grim,
    Welcome !

    Like Spencer, he emphasized that warfare succeeds not so much through the genocidal elimination of rivals as by promoting superior organization and obedience to leadership: the most obedient and the tamest tribes are the strongest. "The compact [probably meaning the same as Spencer's 'cohesive'] tribes win, and the compact tribes are the tamest. Civilisation begins, because the beginning of civilisation is a military advantage" (p. 47). There was no doubt in his mind that the "strongest killed out the weakest as they could". Progress, habitually thought of as a normal fact in human society, is actually a rare occurrence among peoples. Of the existence of progress in the military art there can be no doubt, however, nor of its corollary that the most advanced will destroy the weaker, that the more compact will eliminate the scattered, and that the more civilized are the more compact (Hofstadter, 1955).
    I would be sincerely interested in your views regarding the most recent Rwandan genocides (April to July 94). I watched it and see it today in my dreams (nightmares).

    My previous post:
    The first massacres in Rwanda took place in 1959. Thereafter, almost in a regular manner, killings of the Batutsi became a habit. In the 1960s, 1970s, 1980s and early 1990s massacres of Batutsi were common. Between April and July 1994, over 1 million Rwandese people, mainly Batutsi and some Bahutu opposition were killed by the genocidal regime. So many people were involved in the killings. Those who planned and organised the genocide include the late President, Major General Juvenal Habyarimana, top government officials, including members of the so-called Provisional Government, the presidential Guard, the National Gendarmerie, the Rwanda Government Forces (FAR), the MRND-CDR militia (Interahamwe), local officials, and many Bahutu in the general population.
    This sounds like a poorly translated para, or a bad smoker's habit.

    Marc, please also step in as you are most welcome.

    Regards, Stan
    Last edited by Stan; 02-21-2007 at 08:51 PM. Reason: why not

  6. #46
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    Default The other other Camalot.

    Quote Originally Posted by marct View Post
    120mm,

    For example, Article 2a of the AAA guide says:
    Anthropologists should not communicate findings secretly to some and withhold them from others.
    and article 3a an 1g state:
    [INDENT]Anthropologists should undertake no secret research or any research whose results cannot be freely derived and publicly reported.


    Marc
    Sounds like the Camalot project had a few negative consequences.
    It is right to learn, even from one's enemies
    Ovid

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    Council Member marct's Avatar
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    Talking

    Hi Mondor,

    Quote Originally Posted by Mondor View Post
    Sounds like the Camalot project had a few negative consequences.
    More than a few! Actually, it was one of the projects that destroyed the last vestiges of Anthropology working with the intel / military sector. David Price's articles (referenced in my SWJ article) deal with this in great detail if you are interested.

    Marc
    Sic Bisquitus Disintegrat...
    Marc W.D. Tyrrell, Ph.D.
    Institute of Interdisciplinary Studies,
    Senior Research Fellow,
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    Carleton University
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    Quote Originally Posted by marct View Post
    Hi GRIM,




    Thanks for the link! I'd definately be interested in reading your paper as well. BTW, Jerome Barkow was my Ph.D. external and I've used a fair bit of evolutionary psychology / sociobiology in my own work. Glad to have you on board.

    Marc
    Thanks marct. There is really a wealth of information by Van der Dennen that would make for some very interesting discussion for those who are interested here. His letter ( http://rint.rechten.rug.nl/rth/dennen/letter.htm ) is a fine example of the pariah status immediately granted those in this area of academia with interests in violence. While I respect the researchers he mentions, read quite a bit of their work at one point, and even contacted De Waal for advice concerning graduate work, I still am critical of the points where the more PC "side" of things seem to be talking past the issues.

  9. #49
    Council Member marct's Avatar
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    Hi GRIM,

    In the past, everybody who has propagated the notion that health is something more than just the absence of disease has turned out to be a quack. I am reasonably sure that those scholars who now claim that peace is something more than the absence of war, let me call them the ‘peace and harmony mafia’ for short, will similarly turn out to be the intellectual equivalent of quacks.
    Gods! I love it! I am definitely going to have to read more of Van der Dennen's work!

    Quote Originally Posted by GRIM View Post
    Thanks marct. There is really a wealth of information by Van der Dennen that would make for some very interesting discussion for those who are interested here. His letter ( http://rint.rechten.rug.nl/rth/dennen/letter.htm ) is a fine example of the pariah status immediately granted those in this area of academia with interests in violence. While I respect the researchers he mentions, read quite a bit of their work at one point, and even contacted De Waal for advice concerning graduate work, I still am critical of the points where the more PC "side" of things seem to be talking past the issues.
    The radical PC side has, to my mind, conflated morality with ethics (i.e. confused immediate wish state proscriptions with the "operational rules of reality"). On a purely personal level, I dislike violence. That doesn't mean that I don't know how to defend myself should the situation arise. Maybe it's just a reflex habit inculcated in me by the Baden-Powell mythos of the Boy Scouts, but I do like to "be prepared" .

    I have long held a suspicion that the desire to find a "peaceful way of life" amongst many intellectuals is a result of a radical agnosticism that inverts Christian beliefs and emotionally "requires" them to "find" a "heaven on Earth": a requirement to find the "Peaceful Savage" to warp Rousseau's phrase.

    Marc
    Sic Bisquitus Disintegrat...
    Marc W.D. Tyrrell, Ph.D.
    Institute of Interdisciplinary Studies,
    Senior Research Fellow,
    The Canadian Centre for Intelligence and Security Studies, NPSIA
    Carleton University
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  10. #50
    i pwnd ur ooda loop selil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marct View Post
    On a purely personal level, I dislike violence. That doesn't mean that I don't know how to defend myself should the situation arise.
    What is that quote.... "The true warrior shuns violence but is very good at it..." something like that.
    Sam Liles
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  11. #51
    Council Member MountainRunner's Avatar
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    Default Ostracizing Anthropologists

    Quote Originally Posted by marct View Post
    Actually, it was one of the projects that destroyed the last vestiges of Anthropology working with the intel / military sector. David Price's articles (referenced in my SWJ article) deal with this in great detail if you are interested.
    Marc,
    I haven't read David Price's article (or your SWJ article I'm sorry to say, but I'd appreciate a link ), but I'm sure you've read Montgomery McFate's article "Anthropology and Counterinsurgency: The Strange Story of their Curious Relationship"? (available here). McFate mentions an ostracized anthro:

    Anthropologist Gerald Hickey explored the indigenous Vietnamese cultural
    concept of accommodation. While Taoist roots of the Vietnamese value system stressed individualism, in the Vietnamese worldview, accommodation was
    also necessary to restore harmony with the universe. In Washington, D.C., Hickey’s views on accommodation were treated as heresy. In 1967, at the conclusion of Hickey’s brief to a Pentagon audience, Richard Holbrooke said, “What you’re saying, Gerry, is that we’re not going to win a military victory in
    Vietnam.” Because it did not conform to the prevailing view of the conflict, Hickey’s message was promptly dismissed...Hickey was awarded the medal for Distinguished Public Service by Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara. Despite his medal (or perhaps because of it), Hickey was not able to get an
    academic job when he returned to the United States. He was refused a position at the University of Chicago by fellow anthropologists who objected to his association with RAND. Ironically, Hickey was also forced out of
    RAND because it was no longer interested in counterinsurgency.

    And then there's a "movement" (?) to continue this institutional culture clash:
    The fact that Kilcullen and others are eager to commit social-science knowledge to goals established by the Defense Department and the CIA is indicative of a new anthropology of insurgency. Anthropology under these circumstances appears as just another weapon to be used on the battlefield — not as a tool for building bridges between peoples, much less as a mirror that we might use to reflect upon the nature of our own society.
    See Fighting the militarization of anthropology for more on Kilcullen=bad.

  12. #52
    Council Member 120mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by selil View Post
    What is that quote.... "The true warrior shuns violence but is very good at it..." something like that.
    I have heard that, but due to some "verstehen" issues with the statement I've amended it:

    "The true warrior is so attracted to intense, life or death violence, he doesn't want to be bothered by the piddly kind that fascinates others."

    But then, aren't we all trying to describe the same elephant?

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by MountainRunner View Post

    And then there's a "movement" (?) to continue this institutional culture clash:

    See Fighting the militarization of anthropology for more on Kilcullen=bad.

    Wow. I didn't realize that there still were people who believed in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and the Fundamental Goodness of Man(tm). Building bridges between societies through communication and understanding? Now I realize that those people study Anthropology....

    And they must not have ever raised kids.

  14. #54
    Council Member marct's Avatar
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    Hi Folks,

    Quote Originally Posted by MountainRunner View Post
    Marc,
    I haven't read David Price's article (or your SWJ article I'm sorry to say, but I'd appreciate a link ), but I'm sure you've read Montgomery McFate's article "Anthropology and Counterinsurgency: The Strange Story of their Curious Relationship"?
    Actually, the McFate article, and the brouhaha that it sparked, we the tipping point to get me to write my article. It's in the latest SWJ (Vol 7) and also available here.

    I have certainly heard of Hickey and his problems . In many ways, that case exemplifies some of the differences in mind set or worldview between Anthropologists and people in the military - that's a generalization, not a prescription . In a lot of ways, Cultural Anthropologists are "closer" in worldview to a weird cross between Intel, PSYOPs and long duree historians - we are cultural technologists who rarely get to experiment and have a very long time horizon (~5 million years or so for many of us).

    Quote Originally Posted by MountainRunner View Post
    And then there's a "movement" (?) to continue this institutional culture clash:

    See Fighting the militarization of anthropology for more on Kilcullen=bad.
    Now that is an interesting article. I read some interviews with him after the AAA resolutions and, while I think his heart may be in the right place,I doubt that his head is. He seems to have abandoned, or at least severely restricted, the long view of time. By concentrating on the anti-torture component he is neglecting the long term effects of either a protracted war, a loss of that war, and, also, the long term effects of trying to control information.

    I certainly agree with his anti-torture position - torture just isn't very effective at eliciting information as a recent DIA study showed once again (sorry, can't find the link). Torture used for other purposes, e.g. intimidation, ritual, etc. may be useful in some cultures but not in the Anglo complex where it tends to cause a degradation in the psyche (that's a book in itself, so we'll just leave it there).

    The effects of a protracted war should be obvious to anyone who has studied history, which makes me wonder about Gonzalez. Pretty much every society that has become involved in protracted conflict situations has ended up becoming extremely rigid and controlling of its members, the shifting of Rome from a Republic to the Principate in the 1st century bc is a good example of this, or has ended up falling apart (e.g. post-Periclean Athens, especially in the last 10 years of the Peloponnesian War).

    What about losing the long war? Some of the more alarmist literature showing up, e.g. While Europe Slept, gives a pretty good example of what could happen. Personally, I think the MB inspired ideology of the irhabists would not only destroy Western civilization but, also, be a disaster for Islam and the species as a whole.

    Maybe Gonzalez believes that a quick retreat will ameliorate the effects of a long war and / or a loss. I don't know, and I doubt that we will ever sit down over a couple of beers (probably Perrier for him) and discuss it in a rational manner (we are too polarized to use one of Dalmas' terms ). I would, however, say that when I ead his material and his quotes in various articles, I am reminded of the words of Flanders and Swan:
    The Ostrich

    Peek-a-Boo, I can't see you,
    Everything must be grand.
    Boo-ka-Pee, they can't see me,
    As long as I've got me head in the sand.
    Peek-a-Boo, it may be true,
    There's something in what you've said,
    But we've got enough troubles in everyday life,
    I just bury me head.

    Oh, Ostrich consider hw the world we know
    Is trembling on the brink.
    Have you heard the news, may I hear your views,
    Will you tell me what you think.
    The Ostrich lifted its head from the sand,
    About an inch or so;
    'You will please excuse, but disturbing news
    I have no wish to know.'

    Oooh, Peek-a-Boo, I can't see you,
    Everything must be grand.
    Boo-ka-Pee, they can't see me,
    As long as I've got me head in the sand.
    Peek-a-Boo, it may be true,
    There's something in what you've said,
    But we've got enough troubles in everyday life,
    I just bury me head.

    Then I noticed suddenly where we were,
    I saw what time it was.
    Make haste, I said, It'll be too late,
    We must leave this place because....
    He stuffed his wingtips into his ears;
    He would not hear me speak,
    And back in the soft Saharan sand
    He plunged his yellow beak.

    Oooh, Peek-a-Boo, I can't see you,
    Everything must be grand.
    Boo-ka-Pee, they can't see me,
    As long as I've got me head in the sand.
    Peek-a-Boo, it may be true,
    There's something in what you've said,
    But we've got enough troubles in everyday life,
    I just bury me....

    (BOOM)

    From a sheltered oasis a mile away
    I observed that dreadful scene.
    And a single plume came floating down
    Where my Ostrich friend had been.
    Because he could not bear the sound
    Of these words I had left unsaid;
    'Here in this nuclear testing ground
    Is no place to bury your head!'
    Marc
    Sic Bisquitus Disintegrat...
    Marc W.D. Tyrrell, Ph.D.
    Institute of Interdisciplinary Studies,
    Senior Research Fellow,
    The Canadian Centre for Intelligence and Security Studies, NPSIA
    Carleton University
    http://marctyrrell.com/

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    Council Member MountainRunner's Avatar
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    Marc,
    first thanks for reminding me of the J in SWJ and adding to my reading. Second, I came in after the brouhaha over the article apparently. Who & What?

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    Hi Matt,

    Quote Originally Posted by MountainRunner View Post
    Marc,
    first thanks for reminding me of the J in SWJ and adding to my reading. Second, I came in after the brouhaha over the article apparently. Who & What?
    It was basically a reaction from a number of violently anti-military, anti-intel Anthropologists. Most of the details are in my SWJ article up to about early December, but the snipping continues.

    Marc
    Sic Bisquitus Disintegrat...
    Marc W.D. Tyrrell, Ph.D.
    Institute of Interdisciplinary Studies,
    Senior Research Fellow,
    The Canadian Centre for Intelligence and Security Studies, NPSIA
    Carleton University
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    i pwnd ur ooda loop selil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marct View Post
    ......basically a reaction from a number of violently anti-military, anti-intel Anthropologists. Most of the details are in my SWJ article up to about early December, but the snipping continues.

    Marc

    Don't you love academia Marct? The open minded intellectual discussion irrespective of the viewpoints and political philosophies?



    urp.
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    Quote Originally Posted by selil View Post
    Don't you love academia Marct? The open minded intellectual discussion irrespective of the viewpoints and political philosophies?
    Leave us not forget the charming ambiance (concrete block construction), the fascinating discussions in the Graduate Pub (the Faculty Club was closed by the University administration 6 years ago), the erudite discussions in the hallways (in Arabic, but whose listening?), and the bright eyes in the students faces ('nough said about possible sources).

    Sigh.

    Marc
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    Council Member 120mm's Avatar
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    Marc,

    I've been busily reading the van der Dennen stuff, and think he may have the origin of the "anti-militarization of anthropology" crowd down cold.

    You see, the "warrior" males have most of the sexual opportunities and that leaves the "non-warrior" anthropologist males out in the cold, if you will. Their reaction is one of sexual frustration and jealousy.

    I floated this idea in front of my wife, and she rolled her eyes and said "Harumph!" I think this could mean she agrees with me, or something....

  20. #60
    Council Member marct's Avatar
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    Hi 120mm,

    Quote Originally Posted by 120mm View Post
    I've been busily reading the van der Dennen stuff, and think he may have the origin of the "anti-militarization of anthropology" crowd down cold.

    You see, the "warrior" males have most of the sexual opportunities and that leaves the "non-warrior" anthropologist males out in the cold, if you will. Their reaction is one of sexual frustration and jealousy.
    LOLOL You should read Richard Dawkins on the Peacock's Tail . Freud, even filtered through sociobiology is so passe!

    Marc
    Sic Bisquitus Disintegrat...
    Marc W.D. Tyrrell, Ph.D.
    Institute of Interdisciplinary Studies,
    Senior Research Fellow,
    The Canadian Centre for Intelligence and Security Studies, NPSIA
    Carleton University
    http://marctyrrell.com/

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