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Thread: Anthropology (catch all)

  1. #61
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Default Dia study on torture


  2. #62
    Council Member marct's Avatar
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    Default DIA study

    Hi Stan,

    This is the one I was talking about http://www.fas.org/irp/dni/educing.pdf

    Marc
    Sic Bisquitus Disintegrat...
    Marc W.D. Tyrrell, Ph.D.
    Institute of Interdisciplinary Studies,
    Senior Research Fellow,
    The Canadian Centre for Intelligence and Security Studies, NPSIA
    Carleton University
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  3. #63
    Council Member 120mm's Avatar
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    Default

    It is now that I will admit to being an Interrogator for the Army, back in the 90s. And our training consisted of "screening" and "interviews". At no time were we trained, asked, encouraged or allowed to "pressure" the screenee or interviewee. In fact, we were trained that "getting information" was not the issue, dealing with the vast amounts of information that you will get is the real issue and determining what is useless and what is useful and relevant.

    There are truly not that many resistent subjects. Especially among tribal cultures. It is pretty easy to transition from "core belief" issues to tactical information.

  4. #64
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Default "screening" and "interviews"

    Hey 120 !

    It is pretty easy to transition from "core belief" issues to tactical information.
    My background is different, but then somewhat similar with intel. I would however argue that such a transition would be arduously slow and drive one or the other crazy (then comes torture ).

    We also deal with enormous amounts of info (to include quasi interviews..a tad more friendly environment...over dinner ) and then decide if we were going anywhere. That said, without sufficient knowledge of customs, cultures, etc., all the info in the world may not be enough to draw a conclusion.

    Perhaps I should have learned Interrogation.

    Regards, Stan

  5. #65
    Council Member 120mm's Avatar
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    Default

    IMO, a good interrogator is someone who has good "people skills" and comes off as empathetic. While there are some mild payoffs for using small amounts of pressure at the point of capture, torture is just not a good idea.

    I remember my initial training in screening and interviews; I thought the same thing you just said. It wasn't that different from going to a social event and collecting information on people you find attractive and want to get to know better.

  6. #66
    Council Member marct's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 120mm View Post
    I remember my initial training in screening and interviews; I thought the same thing you just said. It wasn't that different from going to a social event and collecting information on people you find attractive and want to get to know better.
    And that's pretty much how we operate doing fieldwork, too . The difference is more in the environment of the interviews / observations than in the techniques (although we don't torture people except by making them read our dissertations ).

    Marc
    Sic Bisquitus Disintegrat...
    Marc W.D. Tyrrell, Ph.D.
    Institute of Interdisciplinary Studies,
    Senior Research Fellow,
    The Canadian Centre for Intelligence and Security Studies, NPSIA
    Carleton University
    http://marctyrrell.com/

  7. #67
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by marct View Post
    And that's pretty much how we operate doing fieldwork, too . The difference is more in the environment of the interviews / observations than in the techniques (although we don't torture people except by making them read our dissertations ).

    Marc
    The agony!

  8. #68
    Council Member marct's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GRIM View Post
    The agony!
    Especially when you follow the pure PC (aka post modernist) practice of sending rafts to all your informants. Given what mine was like, I think the practice should be banned by the Geneva Convention .

    Marc
    Sic Bisquitus Disintegrat...
    Marc W.D. Tyrrell, Ph.D.
    Institute of Interdisciplinary Studies,
    Senior Research Fellow,
    The Canadian Centre for Intelligence and Security Studies, NPSIA
    Carleton University
    http://marctyrrell.com/

  9. #69
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Default

    Hi Marc !
    practice of sending rafts to all your informants.
    Tom and I gave them rice and chicken which, probably is banned by the Geneva Convention

  10. #70
    Council Member Mondor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 120mm View Post
    Marc, all, is it time for the invention of another field to supplant Anthropology in the field of military matters?
    Hasn't that already been done? Anthropology and Sociology are closely related; in fact I have seen a few universities that have joint Anthropology and Sociology departments. It would seem that if a person wants to practice traditional anthropological work and avoid all of the institutionalized anti-military and anti-government bias of the Anthropology world all one has to do is call ones self a Sociologist.

    At least that is the way it seems from this layman’s perspective. Does that argument have any validity?
    Last edited by Mondor; 03-05-2007 at 09:58 PM. Reason: typo
    It is right to learn, even from one's enemies
    Ovid

  11. #71
    Council Member Tom Odom's Avatar
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    Cool Ptomaine Chickens and Fecal Grubs

    Tom and I gave them rice and chicken which, probably is banned by the Geneva Convention
    Those EU donated chickens that we ended up buying on the black market after who knows how many thaws and refreezes probably would be a violation

    But as you recall, no one complained and besides even at their worst, those chickens smelled better that those feces fed grubs our drivers used to munch on for lunch...

    Tom

  12. #72
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Default UN Chickens ?

    Hey Tom !
    Now don't get Marc going. He recently promised me a Canadian student (for the US Army). Frozen, et al.

    As I recall from my 5th group days after the '3-day map reading course' at Bragg, we at least had a choice between a chicken or a rabbit. They were to some extent still alive. Who cares ?

    But as you recall, no one complained and besides even at their worst, those chickens smelled better that those feces fed grubs our drivers used to munch on for lunch...
    You know, those grubs were still alive, and served on toast every A.M.

    The EU chickens...however...Well, another story. Hmmm, got me thinking why they were always missing the left leg

    I was always partial to the fries in front of the embassy freshly wrapped in unclas message traffic from the previous day

    PS. Your pics left this morning.

    Regards, Stan

  13. #73
    Council Member Tom Odom's Avatar
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    Default SOS Congo Style

    You know, those grubs were still alive, and served on toast every A.M.
    I am happy to say that in all my years as a FAO I never felt compelled to sample the grubs on toast--gives new meaning to the old GI term "SOS" for breakfast..

    For those who are not familiar with this particular delicacy, the Congolese used to grow these grubs in "honey pots". They would toss 'em on a hot griddle just enough to wake 'em up and serve on toast still wiggling, The post-prandial aroma of our drivers after their lunch was eye-watering.


    The EU chickens...however...Well, another story. Hmmm, got me thinking why they were always missing the left leg
    They were truly sad specimens of EU poultry science...

    I was always partial to the fries in front of the embassy freshly wrapped in unclas message traffic from the previous day
    That was part of the Comm center's "think green" program I am sure


    Thanks for shipping the photos!

    Best

    Tom

  14. #74
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Default this particular delicacy

    Tom,
    Com' on already !

    am happy to say that in all my years as a FAO I never felt compelled to sample the grubs on toast--gives new meaning to the old GI term "SOS" for breakfast..

    For those who are not familiar with this particular delicacy, the Congolese used to grow these grubs in "honey pots". They would toss 'em on a hot griddle just enough to wake 'em up and serve on toast still wiggling, The post-prandial aroma of our drivers after their lunch was eye-watering.
    I saw you looking at those Who could resist ? I suddenly have a craving for French C-rats

  15. #75
    Council Member marct's Avatar
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    Default The Fate of McFate at SavageMinds

    On the continuing debate inside Anthropology.

    The Fate of McFate: Anthropology’s Relationship with the Military Revisited

    Back in January, Matthew Stannard at the SF Chronicle, having come across my SM piece Anthropologists as Counter-Insurgents, contacted me about doing an interview for an upcoming profile on Montgomery McFate, the advocate for anthropology in the military whose work I was responding to. The piece is now online, entitled Montgomery McFate’s Mission: Can one anthropologist possibly steer the course in Iraq?. I’m not quite ready to revisit this topic—I’m up to my neck in grading and other work, with the semester’s end a week-and-a-half away, but I thought I’d mention it now while I put together some further thoughts on the matter. It’s a fairly good article, even though I’m only quoted once (Stannard apparently has not been taught the maxim that the more quotes of me a paper has, the better it is). Interestingly, though the interview ranged all over, I’m quoted more in my capacity as historian of anthropology than in my—I think more relevant—role as anthropological ethicist.
    Sic Bisquitus Disintegrat...
    Marc W.D. Tyrrell, Ph.D.
    Institute of Interdisciplinary Studies,
    Senior Research Fellow,
    The Canadian Centre for Intelligence and Security Studies, NPSIA
    Carleton University
    http://marctyrrell.com/

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    Default Mark, Can you check the link?

    I think the second link is bad, can you check?
    thanks

  17. #77
    Council Member marct's Avatar
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    Default

    Hi Cori,

    Quote Originally Posted by Cori View Post
    I think the second link is bad, can you check?
    thanks
    I think their server is really slow! try

    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...MGHQP19VD1.DTL

    If that doesn't work, I can email you the entire story.

    Marc
    Sic Bisquitus Disintegrat...
    Marc W.D. Tyrrell, Ph.D.
    Institute of Interdisciplinary Studies,
    Senior Research Fellow,
    The Canadian Centre for Intelligence and Security Studies, NPSIA
    Carleton University
    http://marctyrrell.com/

  18. #78
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Default This is hardly anthropology’s problem-

    Hi Marc,

    but it is a good indication of the military’s problem, and why those anthropologists who have cooperated with the military have often come to regret it. To return to my imagined example above, the military is committed to invade the region our researcher’s expertise is in, regardless of the quality of their intelligence.
    I personally think it's a relations issue. The military are not trained to get along with their Anthropologists in order to get the job done, and our politicians are also not interested in why Dr. Johnny won't go !

    I realize that perhaps somewhere in history this was often the case. Your recent and detailed analysis was excellent in covering that subject.

    Did we truly invade Iraq based on knowledge gained from Anthropologists ?

    Now that we are indeed 'there', what's the opinion ? Is it now OK to assist and make the situation less painful, make it 'go away' smoother, faster, and without further regret ?

    My rotations in Afghanistan were not graced with experts, and the learning curve was steep. By the 3rd rotation, our teams were functioning well. Would it have hurt one's pride to get us going faster with far less risk ? I would have loved someone getting me ahead of the game without further loss of life. That's my Bravo-Sierra-Bible-Study take.

    As I reflect on the years of experience in Sub-Sahara, Tom and I were always in a sense 'used'. Yes, we knew it from the start. It may not have always been pleasant, but we convinced ourselves that, what we were doing was better than standing on the sidelines watching things go to hell, when we could have prevented it.

    Thanks, I enjoyed the article !
    Last edited by Stan; 04-30-2007 at 09:14 PM.

  19. #79
    Council Member marct's Avatar
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    Default

    Hi Stan,

    Sorry for the delayed reply...

    Quote Originally Posted by Stan View Post
    I personally think it's a relations issue. The military are not trained to get along with their Anthropologists in order to get the job done, and our politicians are also not interested in why Dr. Johnny won't go !
    True and, let's face it, there are some serious disconnects with how the military and Anthropology view the world .

    Quote Originally Posted by Stan View Post
    I realize that perhaps somewhere in history this was often the case. Your recent and detailed analysis was excellent in covering that subject.

    Did we truly invade Iraq based on knowledge gained from Anthropologists ?
    Thanks, Stan. Information from Anthropologists, specifically some cultural insights from a book published in the 1960's, was used in some cases. The invasion certainly was not "based on" anthropology - in fact, the vast majority of Anthropologists opposed the Iraqi war and would have nothing to do with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stan View Post
    Now that we are indeed 'there', what's the opinion ? Is it now OK to assist and make the situation less painful, make it 'go away' smoother, faster, and without further regret ?
    In a word - "poor". There are serious problems getting anyone to work on the Human Terrain Teams, anyone who tries to work with the military is subject to be ostracized by PC radicals, and the vast majority of Anthropologists just don't want to have anything to do with it. Assisting now is viewed as being a "traitor to the discipline" by some of the extremist, and highly vocal, PC crowd.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stan View Post
    My rotations in Afghanistan were not graced with experts, and the learning curve was steep. By the 3rd rotation, our teams were functioning well. Would it have hurt one's pride to get us going faster with far less risk ? I would have loved someone getting me ahead of the game without further loss of life. That's my Bravo-Sierra-Bible-Study take.
    Afghanistan is somewhat different from Iraq, although there is still a lot of negativity attached to it. I was actually involved in a project for CIDA at the time, tracking world opinion of what was happening in Afghanistan, and it became pretty clear to me that many government agencies, at least in Canada, didn't want Anthropologists involved.

    You know, in some ways we are dealing with a situation where Anthropology has backed itself into a corner. First, yelling "Hands Off!!!" in the 1960-70's to governments established a situation where these agencies wouldn't think of Anthropology. Later on, when people start realizing how useful we could be, the radicals who were yelling "Hands Off" are now the senior members of the discipline and, as with old generals, they are always ready to fight the last war .

    Quote Originally Posted by Stan View Post
    As I reflect on the years of experience in Sub-Sahara, Tom and I were always in a sense 'used'. Yes, we knew it from the start. It may not have always been pleasant, but we convinced ourselves that, what we were doing was better than standing on the sidelines watching things go to hell, when we could have prevented it.
    Yeah, I understand the feeling .

    Marc
    Sic Bisquitus Disintegrat...
    Marc W.D. Tyrrell, Ph.D.
    Institute of Interdisciplinary Studies,
    Senior Research Fellow,
    The Canadian Centre for Intelligence and Security Studies, NPSIA
    Carleton University
    http://marctyrrell.com/

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    Default Methinks Messrs Gusterson & Price doth protest too ...

    Marc, you sure hit a raw nerve with your article! The boys claim that they are not making ad hominem attacks as they take out their billy clubs and whale away for just that purpose. I'll take your "shoddy scholarship" over their whining any day. Looking forward to seeing your response.

    Cheers

    John

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