Dutch state liable for three Srebrenica deaths

[jmm99]

but, need some "tweaking" to even start considering your questions:

So what happened here? What about his character was missed? Can modern officer and soldier selection select out for this?

"here" and "his" being Singapore and Percival; "there" (my word) being the Canal (and Chosin) and Puller.

Put another way, what made the 1st Marine Division special ? Answer: nothing; they were just Marines.

Regards

Mike

[davidbfpo]

Just a thought and remaining with the Srebenica example. Would the Dutch commander, plus his command, have taken a different decision minus the blue beret?

The USMC example cited was a UN mission, so it is far more than a blue beret.

[jmm99]

I agree with the title tidbit, as stated, but I'm thrown by the reference to "UN mission". Korea was "UN", in the sense that Harry Truman used the UNSC resolutions as jus ad bellum; but command over the "UN" forces was US - including the South Koreans. Did Mark or I cite another UN mission involving the USMC ?

Regards

Mike

[jmm99]

and Mark's questions:

So what happened here? What about his character was missed? Can modern officer and soldier selection select out for this?

From Moran, Anatomy of Courage, "Moods", chap 4, pp.37-38

A sentry is faced suddenly by a large body of the enemy, his lowest instinct of self-preservation acts, but before any movement of flight can take place the instinct for the preservation of the race has intervened and barred the way to self-indulgence. The voice of duty tells him that his own safety must be subordinated to that of the army of which he is a member. And this voice of the herd is backed by threats of physical and moral penalties.

Moran goes on to Mark's quote:

"In the presence of danger man often finds salvation in action. To dull emotion he must do something; to remain immobile, to stagnate in mind or body, is to surrender without terms."

Moran goes on to cite Trotter, Instincts of the Herd in Peace and War (1921)(Wiki). Today, hundreds of works are along the same lines (though using different vocabulary).

We have two important concepts here (in Moran's words): "instinct of self-preservation" and "instinct for the preservation of the race".

I'd suggest that both "instincts" are controlled by genetics and environment in the given individual - to different degrees.

Let's take firstly the "instinct for self-preservation" - freeze, flight, fight. I listed "freeze" first because I think it might be material to surrenders. If a person does not know what to do in a bad situation, that person is likely to freeze, especially if flight is foreclosed. If a person does know what to do in a bad situation, that person is likely to do what has to be done.

So, how much training did Percival, Wainwright, Karremans, etc., have in making the choice between death and surrender ? Did they "freeze" in the headlights - and then make their choices based on a distorted view of the tactical situation, or for emotional "humanitarian" reasons ?

That last question takes us into the "instinct for the preservation of the race", which underlies our human abilities to cooperate, be altruistic and humanitarian - with and to those persons we consider to be "us". In the case of Percival and Wainwright, they were definitely concerned with all the bad things that could happen to their troops and civilians - if they did not surrender.

So, was William Hull, who surrendered Detroit to the British in 1812 because he was afraid of what the Indians would do to his troops and settlers (Wiki). He was court-martialed, sentenced to be shot, but pardoned by President Monroe. He then wrote a book giving all of his reasons for why he should not have been prosecuted, much less convicted. Hint: Hull was a lawyer, a political appointee and very filled with self-deception.

These references are online, but involve more reading than they are currently worth. Hull, William (1824), Memoirs of the Campaign of the North Western army of the United States, A.D. 1812, Boston: True & Greene, OCLC 11571681 (digital version contains both this document and Forbes' Report of the Trial); and Forbes, James G. (1814), Report of the Trial of Brig. General William Hull, Commanding the North-Western Army of the United States, New York: Eastburn, Kirk, OCLC 4781638.

It has been said of Percival on the eve of his surrender (link):

Percival realised that his only options were to fight to the death or surrender.

Prior to that, had he considered that some day he might be faced with those options ?

Regards

Mike

PS: Does someone have the Dutchbat report online in English ?

[Kiwigrunt]

PS: Does someone have the Dutchbat report online in English ?

Not sure if this is what you are looking for.

[jmm99]

Srebrenica: Reconstruction, background, consequences and analyses of the fall of a ‘safe’ area - all 3875 pages of it.

Thank you, Auckland.

Regards

Mike

[JMA]

Been in no-mans land again. Now back in the land of the living.

This thread does not seem to be generating much interest.

Nevertheless I will attempt to add to this discussion to further present my POV.