CAR Central African Republic: Fragile, failed and forlorn

[KingJaja]

davidbfpo,

I've always insisted that one of Africa's major problems is the proliferation of artificial states & artificial systems imposed on by Europeans with absolutely zero appreciation of local conditions.

US was never a serious colonial power, so is naive about the true genesis of Africa's predicament, too uninterested to get involved & too trusting of former colonial powers (especially France).

But water must eventually find its level. Just like Sykes-Picot is unraveling in the Middle East, the "Berlin Conference" must unravel in Africa.

As an aside - consider Cameroon, the presence of Boko Haram in neighbouring Nigeria, a succession crisis when Paul Biya finally kicks the bucket (he's 81) and Central African Republic next door - make it the next likely candidate for destabilization.

[JMA]

davidbfpo,

I've always insisted that one of Africa's major problems is the proliferation of artificial states & artificial systems imposed on by Europeans with absolutely zero appreciation of local conditions.

Remind my again of what was there before the Europeans arrived?

[jmm99]

Created by Local Conditions - such as by Shaka in your own Natal, Mark.

Or, I suppose one could, as another example, begin with Rhodesia's Tribal Trust Lands (and all the different tribes occupying them);



and then go back in time to before CJR and look at the "natural state" of things in the mid-1800s; and also look to the time before Shaka, since his "natural" activities in the south seem to have added to the tribal mix to the north.

The question really isn't what caused "modern-day" sub-Saharan Africa. The question is what plan do the Africans (not a bunch of "mindele", here at SWC or elsewhere) have to correct the obvious problems.

Perhaps, the Africans might go back to the "natural states and natural systems" of the era before the "mindele" colonialists came (take a time machine to between 1500 and the later 1800s depending on area). Perhaps, they could organize the (literally) thousands of sub-Saharan ethnicities ("tribes") into some coherent framework of "natural", "national" governments. Perhaps, we might see something like this:



In any event, it would be nice for an African to present a tangible plan for the creation of African states based on the "natural state" of the African ethnicities who live there.

For example, what would the "natural" (and presumably "better") Central African Republics (plural) look like ? I won't hold my breath waiting for the map.

Regards

Mike

[carl]

Mike:

The way I always heard it pronounced was mundele, as in mun (rhymes with bun) de (as in de in de Bears) lay.

[KingJaja]

jmm99,

The first stage is for Africans to discuss the internal political architecture of their nations. This happened in the Republic of Benin - and that nation has been stable ever since.

In nations like CAR, a combination of French meddling, hasty formation & a history of mutual distrust makes this process difficult - but it must proceed.

Nations like US prioritise outward signs of stability and elections over the less sexy & more important & difficult work of national cohesion & nation building.

Africa's problems are for Africans to solve. My point is that after the seemingly endless cycle of violence and external intervention - at a certain point, some unstable states will either fall apart permanently or work out an indigenous solution to their teething problems.

CAR for example, has bifurcated - it a essentially a "Christian" enclave in the South and a much smaller "Muslim" enclave in the North. No amount of elections will change that essential reality. And international community is wasting time by impeding the process of formation of two independent separate states in that part of the World.

In my native Nigeria, we are preparing for a National Dialogue, a three month discussion on what different ethnic nationalities want from the Nigerian state. This goes beyond mere elections, Africa's artificial states have flawed foundations and the best way forward is for locals to proactively discuss these challenges and build a state that caters to their needs (not a mere ex-colonial administrative unit).

[jmm99]

As Stan will tell you, I can't pronounce English - or, at least, I have an "odd" accent ! So, perhaps, "mndele" would be a better way to write it - leaving the initial vowel sound up for grabs.

However, since it seems both of us are easily launched on insatiable quests for knowledge (not a bad thing), I've now looked at a couple of Lingala online translators - note that I was using the word in the plural ("a bunch of mindele" and "the mindele colonialists") - and here we go:

translation / dictionary Lingala - English:

mindele
exists as the plural of singular "mondele", "mundele"

mondele, noun, pl. mindele (class 3 / 4 : mo- (mu-) / mi- (objets))
mundele, noun, pl. mindele (class 3 / 4 : mo- (mu-) / mi- (objets)) (kin)

white (white man)
zombie
European-style person
person with light skin color
whale

FREELANG Lingala-English and English-Lingala online dictionary:

Searching for: white (4 results)
white mondele
A white car Motuka ya mpembe
white mpmbe
white? pembe?

and

Searching for: whites (1 results)
whites mindele

So, it seems that both of us are correct.

-----------------------------
KingJaja:

Africa's problems are for Africans to solve. My point is that after the seemingly endless cycle of violence and external intervention - at a certain point, some unstable states will either fall apart permanently or work out an indigenous solution to their teething problems.

CAR for example, has bifurcated - it a essentially a "Christian" enclave in the South and a much smaller "Muslim" enclave in the North. No amount of elections will change that essential reality. And international community is wasting time by impeding the process of formation of two independent separate states in that part of the World.

In my native Nigeria, we are preparing for a National Dialogue, a three month discussion on what different ethnic nationalities want from the Nigerian state. This goes beyond mere elections, Africa's artificial states have flawed foundations and the best way forward is for locals to proactively discuss these challenges and build a state that caters to their needs (not a mere ex-colonial administrative unit).

Yes (we've discussed this before).

But, why didn't you say that from the start - rather than playing the old "big bad colonialists; run, run, the white giants are coming" card ?

That era ended 50 years ago - despite Roland the Headless Thompson Gunner - and the modern-day "Rolands" are not from the "Land of the Midnight Sun". It's time that both Africans and Europeans understood that. You and I long ago agreed that the US should not be a major African player.

Regards

Mike

PS: And, there's still the Roland game - animated Zevon !!

[carl]

Mike:

Mndele and mindele work for me.

In Congo anyway I think they use the word for a westerner of any color. At least that was what a black American former Peace Corps worker told me once. He was drunk and headed for a cliff at night and the people in the village were yelling that they were going to lose their mndele.

[JMA]

As Stan will tell you, I can't pronounce English - or, at least, I have an "odd" accent ! So, perhaps, "mndele" would be a better way to write it - leaving the initial vowel sound up for grabs.

However, since it seems both of us are easily launched on insatiable quests for knowledge (not a bad thing), I've now looked at a couple of Lingala online translators - note that I was using the word in the plural ("a bunch of mindele" and "the mindele colonialists") - and here we go:

Ok then:

White man in local languages around here - South and east coast:

Umlungu – South Africa (isiZulu)
Mzungu – Malawi (ChiChewa) and Kenya (kiSwahili)
Murungu – Zimbabwe (ChiShona)
Lekgowa – Botswana (Tswana)