Russian Bronze Statue in Estonia

[Stan]

Jan 25, 2007, TBT staff
On Wednesday, the upper house of the Russian parliament, the Federation Council, passed a resolution asking Estonia to halt its plans to remove a Soviet-Era Red Army monument in Tallinn. “The Federation Council is highly concerned over the adoption of the law on the protection of war graves in Estonia,” the Russian news agency Interfax quoted the document as saying.

This was a major accomplishment for Estonia's new government. The general population was up in arms over the annual tradition of flowering the monument. Dressed in former USSR military uniforms and parading in the general area with Russian flags, as if the Russians still think of themselves as Estonia's liberators. Pretty bold using the name liberator to an army which, after driving the Germans out, stayed on to loot, rape and commit grave crimes against Estonians.

These Russians are actually Estonian citizens (according to their passports that is), who most of the time enjoy their lifestyle in Estonia. Must be that, cause they don't seem to want to return to the Motherland )

The leader of the Nashi (Russian) movement, Vasily Yakemenko, told the media present that if the bronze statue of a Soviet soldier in Tallinn is removed, then Nashi activists will start going to Estonia and take turns standing guard on the monument's former site garbed in military uniform.

While the Russian Federation Council claimed that tearing the statue down would create more divisions in society, the Estonian Prime Minister defended the decision and said just the opposite.

“What respect are we talking about if crowds keep treading on the grave, hold rallies, drink vodka or wait for a trolleybus there? This goes against Estonians' idea of the place of eternal rest of the dead,” he said.

The prime minister added that the bronze statue of a Soviet soldier at Tonismagi in Tallinn has become a monument which is dividing the nation instead of uniting and consolidating it.

[kaur]

Stan Reber says:

"These Russians are actually Estonian citizens (according to their passports that is), who most of the time enjoy their lifestyle in Estonia. Must be that, cause they don't seem to want to return to the Motherland "

Stan, you must not forget the backround of most of those people. Most of them arrived to Estonian territory after USSR troops chased away German troops and started their own occupation. At first those Russians manned security organisations posts (read state terror organisations), but later came labour migrants to man that huge industrial complex, which was initiated from central planners from Moscow. One of the reasons for that migration was fact that thousands of Estonians were sent (mainly elite who survived first deportation in 1940 to Siberia and deadly II WW) to Siberian camps. All of the identy of those migrants was built around the II WW tiumph. Most of them have no idea about real history of Estonia (and I suppose that they really don't care. Despite that they live mainly in Russian propaganda room, because a lot of them watch only Russian TV programs due to fact that their Estonian language skills are too weak to follow Estonian TV channels). Statue of Soviet unkonown soldier in Tõnismäe is symbol for their being here. This is like changing paradigma. This has always been hard. The other problem is connected with the fact that modern Russia is bulding it new ideology. Part of it rests on fight against Nazi Germany. Statue of un-known soldier is part of this narrative building.

Here is quite objective story from Moscow Times.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/storie...01/25/001.html

[Stan]

Hey Kaur !
Did you know that your Cousel ID is actually an Estonian Male's first name ?

In April of this year I will celebrate my 12th year of living and working in Estonia. Not some US Embassy employee hiding behind the "magic forcefield" of the Embassy walls, but right there with everybody. 5 years in the Ministry of Defense and in April, 5 years with the Rescue Services Special Demining Center and Northern Bomb Group.

That said, I can tell you that you will never convince Estonians that anything good will come out of this.

Yes, I am well aware of Estonia's history and Russia's use of "labor Migrants" to offset those Estonians sent to Siberia. I worked right along side of a man at the MOD, now in his early 80s. He was one of those sent to siberia. He cannot for a second explain what happened without breaking into emotional tears and has to sit down.

That's but one of how many ?

This is why I concur with sending that bronze thing back home. The Russian government may need to rethink the situation, before the Estonian public does the dirty deed themselves. Cheap economic threats by the Russians won't work, they depend on Estonia and the trade from Russia is less than 10 percent, thus nothing more than words and indeed a cheap threat.

Lastly, regarding the inability to learn Estonian after 50 years, is just Bravo Sierra. I learned Estonian in 13 weeks in Arlington. I have taken and passed the Estonian Living and Working Permit exam 7 times.

Regards, Stan

[Stan]

that migration was fact that thousands of Estonians were sent (mainly elite who survived first deportation in 1940 to Siberia and deadly II WW) to Siberian camps.

Hi Kaur,
I neglected to mention that my 80-year old friend at the MOD taught high school history and his brother (who later died there), was an actor.

They were then among the "elite" souls from Estonia ?

Lastly, regarding the inability to learn Estonian after 50 years, is just Bravo Sierra. I learned Estonian in 13 weeks in Arlington. I have taken and passed the Estonian Living and Working Permit exam 7 times.

Just to preclude an obvious question to my previous paragraph, Estonia back in the mid-90's would only issue one-year work/living permits to foreigners. Then in 2003, I was given a 5-year permit and no longer have to take a high school-level language and cultural exam

Regards, Stan


Regards, Stan

[kaur]

Stan, I'm Estonian and living in Tallinn. I was just trying to give little deeper backround to your topic that other forum members could understand this problem better. We, as Estonians, and parlamentarians who represent our thoughts, want do this statue removal in civilized way. Enough is enough (especially after Russia started to use this monument in their propaganda offencive) and it's time to take this statue to cemetery where people can bring flowers. At present time it's just symbol of occupation (in the center of our capital) for over 70% of people (this is the percentage of Estonians in Estonia) and real soruce of misunderstanding between ethnic groups. I know a lot of Russians who understand things the same way as we do. The problem is that a lot of them still see things opposite way, which means via Soviet (now Russian) propaganda prisma. There are several reasons. First, Russian TV ja radio, whisch is real PSYOPS maschine. Second, history lessons in Estonian Russian secondary schools (Russia is trying to give them even history books published in Russia).Third, Russian grandparents who tell to their grandchildren their version of history (hallelujah to Soviet Union) etc.

There are elections coming in March in Estonia. In Estonia, there are couple Russian parties. The fact is that they have not won seats in Estonian parliament. To get those seats they had to find painful issues to give new breathing to their institutions. As we know 1 issue parties are not very succsessful in long term and i hope that this rule is valid also here.

PS. My grandfather was police officer in independent Estonian Republic, before II WW. He was taken to Siberia in 1940 in animal carriage. He was there over 10 years and came back. Relatives say that he was never the same man.

[kaur]

It depends how to define elite. If we define it as a class, who as potential to resist and organise insurgency to occupying power, then elite is very large portion of people. I defined elite this way. Among other geographical parts in Soviet Union, occupying force had it's counter-insurgency campaign also in Estonia. One of the solutions was also deportation of people who could resist.

[Stan]

Tervist Kaur !
Ei tea miks, aga ma ju arvansingi, et olete Eestlane

A slightly refreshing approach. I am often used as a perfect example of integration. But then, I take my life and job seriously and my collegues at work expect me to pull my own weight, even if it means in another language and culture.

Regards, Stan

[Stan]

Reformists pull off surprise victory, consider dumping Centrists
http://www.baltictimes.com/news/articles/17446/
Mar 07, 2007
By Joel Alas

The result may finalize one of the most contentious issues in Estonia – the Bronze Soldier monument. The election was seen on one level as a referendum on the Bronze Soldier. While Reform and IRL were outspoken in their desire to see the Soviet statue removed, the Center Party was adamant that it should stay.
Pettai said if Reform and IRL form a government, the fate of the soldier was sealed.
“They were clearly keen on removing it. If they are in power, we could see bulldozers moving in,” Pettai said.

[Stan]

It may truely be on its way home following a Russia vs Estonia football match.

Sadly, Estonia lost 2 nill

Estonian prime minister says relocation of Soldier Liberator monument to begin soon

http://shaan.typepad.com/shaanou/200...an_prime_.html

TALLINN - Preparations for the relocation of the monument to the Soldier-Liberator in Tallinn are under way in Estonia, Estonian Prime Minister Andrus Ansip said on Thursday.

"The commission for military burials has made its proposals, preparations are under way," Ansip said.

He noted that the parties to be included in his future coalition government have not discussed the issue. "This is not a subject for coalition talks," he said.

[Stan]

A group of radical Estonian nationalists attempted to lay a wreath of barbed wire to the monument of Soviet Warrior the Liberator in Tallinn. The slogan written on the ribbons attached to the wreath said : “To the murderer of the Estonian nation.”

The defenders of the monument who were informed about the imminent provocation gathered near the Bronze Soldier in Tallinn to express their own protest. They formed a live chain near the monument. The police later encircled the people to prevent a possible outbreak of violence.

The Estonian nationalists decided to conduct an action of sacrilege to mark the anniversary of the deportation of Estonians, which Soviet leader Joseph Stalin signed on March 25, 1949.

More here
http://shaan.typepad.com/shaanou/

[Stan]

Apr 04, 2007
TBT staff

Sergei Ivanov, the first deputy prime minister of Russia, on tuesday appealed to Russians at a WWII veterans meeting to refrain from buying Estonian goods and from travelling to Estonia. Ivanov said that the Estonian authorities' plans to remove the Red Army monument – known as the Bronze Soldier – from Tonismagi in central Tallinn was an act of vandalism which “will not pass without leaving a trace on Estonian-Russian relations.”
He then urged the members of the meeting to refrain from buying Estonian goods, which he said Russians were buying eagerly, or from travelling to Estonia on holidays. Ivanov also said that the construction of the Ust-Luga port in the Leningrad region should be sped up in order to cut the profits of Estonian ports.
Andrei Denisov, the first deputy foreign minister of Russia, said that while Moscow is not planning to take any official measures of pressure against Estonia, it is not satisfied with the present situation of Russian-Estonian relations.

[Stan]

No measures against Estonia over monument

Sure wish these Russkies would figure out what they want to do with the Broze dude !

The Estonian police no longer guard it, and the drunk youth certainly add a new dimension. Nice touch, empty vodka bottles and cigarette butts liter the grass every Friday and Saturday. That's kinda sorta honor...right ?

MOSCOW -- Russia is not going to take any economic measures against Estonia over the situation regarding the monument to the Liberator Soldier in Tallinn, Andrei Denisov, the Russian first deputy foreign minister, said on Tuesday. “No measures against Estonia are considered,” he said.

Denisov said the statement by First Deputy Prime Minister of the Russian Federation Sergei Ivanov on this subject on Tuesday “was an emotional statement.”

Ivanov said at the meeting with Russian veterans that the actions of the Estonian authorities regarding the monument to the Liberator Solder in Tallinn “cannot but affect Russian-Estonian relations.” “The construction of (of a port) in Ust-Luga of the Leningrad region should be completed prompter so as not to augment the budget of Estonia in the ports of which 85 percent of the cargoes are Russian,” the first deputy premier said.

“Civil society should manifest its stand, too,” Ivanov said. “Many products manufactured in Estonia, including sour milk products, are sold in north west Russia. People can keep from buying them and thus express their attitude to the policy of the Estonian authorities,” he said.

“I don’t call for a boycott,” Ivanov said. “This is not a matter of our state sanctions. This is a civil stand. Don’t buy Estonian. Don’t vacation in Estonia. Vacation in our Kaliningrad,” the first deputy premier said.

[Stan]

Just a little history !

http://en.rian.ru/analysis/20070326/62633158.html

Russians think that Latvians, Lithuanians and Estonians are arrogant, that their countries are malicious gnomes with an all-but-Nazi ideology, and that they hate Russia and treat Russian-speaking residents of their countries as second-class people. To be honest, Russians dislike the Balts for three reasons :

To start with, they were the first to leave the Soviet Union - how ungrateful !

Second, these pro-Western countries rushed into the EU and NATO - joined our enemies !

Third, they make claims on our territory or demand compensation for what they call "the Soviet occupation."

Discontent with the status of local Russians and other grievances are rooted in these causes. There are ex-Soviet countries where Russians are really having a hard time, but Moscow does not want to mess with dictatorships. It is much safer to lash out at the three Baltic democracies.

Our protests against SS veterans' rallies or SS monuments in the Baltics are also affected in many respects. In Russia, people freely march under overtly Nazi slogans, and Nazi literature is sold in the open, but society does not worry too much about this.

Moscow's traditionally high-handed attitude to small European countries and its habit of resolving all issues only with its big partners - America, Germany or France - is a source of rightful irritation in the Baltic nations. Russian policy towards them is hardly dexterous. What has our diplomacy done to build new relations with them ? Incidentally, when transport links with Kaliningrad turned into a big problem, Moscow desperately needed good relations with Lithuania, but there were none to be had.

[Stan]

Work to dismantle soldier monument to be continued in Tallinn

Estonian Prime Minister Andrus Ansip said that the remains of Soviet soldiers could be removed from a common grave in downtown Tallinn and reburied, and that the monument to the Liberator Soldier could be relocated by May 9.

"The new government, to assume duties soon, will continue the work to pull down the Bronze Soldier," Ansip told the press on Wednesday.

The outgoing government has formed a commission for military graves which has made proposals. "Preparations for reburial are under way and this work will be continued," he said.

Ansip announced that a place is being prepared at Tallinn's military cemetery where the remains will be buried and the Bronze Soldier placed.