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Thread: Russian Bronze Statue in Estonia

  1. #41
    Small Wars Journal SWJED's Avatar
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    Default Translation?

    This thread has been getting a lot of attention (visitors) from Estonia via this link - Postimees.ee. Translation anyone?

  2. #42
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    SWJED, this is Estonian's daily newspaper "Postimees" blog and author of this short story is former Estonian prime minister Mart Laar. He says that it's time for Estonians (and non-Estonians like Stan) to say in international forums what is going on here. He mentions this forum with link, Stan's and my name. He says that Estonia is under Russian porpaganda offence and situation is similar to 1940 when Soviet Union sent their delegation to orchestrate so called revolution here and this time among Russian speaking population. Russian Duma delegation visited Estonia Monday and Tuesday and according to plan they leave today. Estonian officials gave them overview about events in Estonia during last week riots and according to delegation they got very good overview - they found out that statue is in one pieace, riots were handled correctly, human rights were not violated. The last point was most imoprtant for them, because they got complaints about bad handling and detention (people were held in huge storage hose for 3-6 hours to id them) from Russian and Russian-speaking people. During last meeting they got good explanations form mr. Allar Jõks, Chancellor of Justice, that according to law in special emergency cases people can be handled this way. He said that for this short time the conditions were very ok. He said that if you can't give me any evidences then we can't talk about violations anymore. Russians couldn't produce evidences there. Jõks added that all compalints are welcome and his team will handle them according to law. Russian delegation seemed pleased. There is one more aspect. Some sources claim that delegation met privatly with Edgar Savisaar, who is leader Central party and whose voters are mostly elders and Russian speaking people. He is not in coalition which decided to remove statute. He is head of Tallinn, Estonian capital, where statue is located. His party is in opposition and it is workind against coalition and his statements may become source of inter-ethnic conflict. Estonians have gathered already over 70 000 signatures that he steps back. This is situation in Estonia. Different situation is in Moscow where our embassy is under siege by Russian youth movements that are usually guided by Kremlin and especially Surkov. I suppose personally that Russia is using internationally piecemail stratey (according to Beaufre) to step-by-step devide our allies and destroy our internal stabilty.

    Here is one new article by Jamestown.

    Russia’s state-controlled television channels misleadingly claimed that the monument had been “cut to pieces,” whereas it is actually being transferred intact to a military cemetery on the outskirts of Tallinn. The Russian channels reported very little about the vandalism and drunkenness. Instead, they blamed Estonian police for “brutality,” characterized the gangs as “Russian school pupils,” “monument defenders,” and “anti-fascists,” and ran archival footage of Soviet-era festivities around the monument. Russian TV generalized that “British MPs” disapproved of Estonia, only to produce the eccentric leftist George Galloway expressing that view.
    http://www.jamestown.org/edm/article...cle_id=2372133

    Article by Moscow Times "Rhetoric Only Outdone by The Hypocrisy"

    http://www.themoscowtimes.com/storie...05/02/005.html

    I hope that Stan, with his fluent English will and couple words and comments.

    PS. One of the most voiceful members of Russian delegation who critisized Estonia about human rights was mr Slutski, member of Shirinovski party, whose good firend is Chechnya's Kadõrov. Here is story how Slutski gave present to Kadõrov's zoo.

    http://fmnews.ru/oddly/news.php?date...3200&det=gifts

    Here is Mart Laar's blog in English with his explanation why Russia likes Soviet occupation monuments?

    http://blog.irl.ee/Mart/
    Last edited by kaur; 05-02-2007 at 11:51 AM.

  3. #43
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    Default Thanks!

    Kaur,

    Much appreciated.

    Dave

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    In my previous post I just dug into details and forgot most imortant thing. Before departure from Moscow, head of Russian delegation (ex FSB general), made statement that Estonian people should get rid of this kind of government that made such bad decision to relocate statue. After 2 day visit they hadn't changed their point. They just added that this is their personal opinion. They started with this statement to influence Estonian internal political processes and contiuned this during all their visit (in 2 press conferences and telephone interviews) and i think they will contiue this back in Russia despite all explanations about events and reasons of action by Estonian authorities. Who is the person they would like to be new prime minister? This is Edgar Savisaar I mentioned in previous post. Estonia got new parliament in the beginning of March and it was bitter thing for Savisaar to be left out of government despite fact that his party was second in the list of resluts. During election campaign, Russian Jedinaja Rossija party members suggested to elect for Savisaar in public ads and Russian-speaking people did this. That time peaceful plan didn't work out and seems that Duma delegation visit is new try by Russia to boost Savisaar's career.

  5. #45
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Sorry for the delays. I had tried to take some much needed leave, and got called back.

    The blog's author, Mart Laar, now a leader in one of the strongest right wing fractions (Res Publica - The Republic) struck comparisons with the 1940's occupation and today's current problems. I'll post those separately herein.

    Regarding the SWJ, Mart opined "Thanks to the Prime Minister for standing up for us in our hour of need, and thanks to people like Kaur and Sten (sic) in getting Estonia's word out via forums such as the SWC. You could say 'kudos'

    Res Publica holds 5 ministry positions and boasts members such as the former Chief of Defense, Gold-Medal Olympic winners, and staunch right wingers. In a word, backed by the people.

    More to follow...Translating mucho text

  6. #46
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Default One has to wonder why the EU has been under attack lately.

    That’s an easy one…because Russia is attacking Estonia.

    The Bronze Soldier and the rioting/vandalism in Tallinn were and still are Estonia’s domestic matters. But Russia’s coordinated actions against Estonia are an EU problem. EU-Russia relations have entered a very complicated phase, while Estonia witnesses Virtual, Psychological and Real attacks.

    Various LE CI reports indicate that before the riots, representatives of the Russian Embassy met with the principle ‘riot’ organizers in Tallinn and other Estonian cities. Said meetings took place “in the strangest of places such as Tallinn’s Botanical Gardens”.

    It has also been established that cyber terrorist attacks took place against Estonian governmental institutional websites (to include the President’s Office). Links were discovered from IP addresses of “concrete computers and by concrete individuals from Russian government organs”.

    The Russian State Duma (Senate) delegation visited Estonia through the intermediation of the EU’s Presidency this past week. Upon arrival, they demanded the resignation of the government and refused to cooperate or enter into dialogue with Estonian officials.

    The Foreign Minister openly stated to the press “I affirm to you that we have sufficient material to prove our accusations. This clearly shows that the future of people of Russian-decent in Estonia is merely being used for a rhetorical pretext, and our compatriots are being used for greater political gains.”
    Last edited by Stan; 05-02-2007 at 11:56 AM.

  7. #47
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Default Estonian Ambassador to Moscow was attacked

    In a conference room where riot control gas was unsed

    Estonian Ambassador to the Russian Federation Marina Kaljurand was attacked at a press conference in Moscow on Wednesday, 2 May.

    Ambassador Marina Kaljurand broke through the cordon of hooligans circling the Embassy to give a press conference at the offices of “Argumentő i Faktő”. The Ambassador was attacked in the press conference room and gas was used. Rioting youths also attacked the Ambassador’s car that was waiting outside. The youths proceeded to brutally tear off the car’s Estonian flag.

    Physical attacks on the Estonian Republic’s diplomatic representative are unprecedented and absolutely unjustifiable. These attacks call for immediate actions from the international community.

    The events clearly show that Russian authorities are blatantly violating the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations.
    "The direct links of hostile Russian youth organizations like Nashi and Molodaja Gvardija to the Kremlin are well known. Just as well known is the fact that persons holding the Estonian Embassy under siege are being paid 550 to 1,000 Roubles per day by the Kremlin."

    "On Thursday, I will make a proposal to the Estonian Government as to which measures Estonia believes that the EU should apply to Russia. These measures have to influence Russia, so that it ends the attacks and its interference in Estonia's internal matters. Remind Russia of its obligations under the Vienna Convention regarding Diplomatic Relations. "

  8. #48
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Default Please publish this story as everyone in Estonia and in the Baltics has forgotten

    Some indeed do remember !

    If you need any further confirmation of this story, please contact the
    Tallinn city archives and we will provide you with all the details.
    linnaarhiiv@tallinnlv.ee

    While the Russian government today complains about the removal of the bronze soldier and the fact that 13 dead soviet soldiers are being moved to a military cemetery for a proper burial; they should first apologise for destroying one of the largest cemeteries in Tallinn in 1945-50.

    Here is a forgotten story about the Soviet destruction of one of the
    largest cemeteries in Tallinn in 1945-50.

    In the Kopli area of Tallinn there used to be a very large Baltic German cemetery. This cemetery was created in the late 18th century when Catherine the Great of Russia decreed (for health reasons such as outbreaks of the plague) that people could no longer be buried in churches. The cemetery was called Ziegelskoppel and the first burials started around 1780 and the cemetery stood in Kopli until 1945. After the 2nd Russian occupation between 1945-1950 the Russian army declared the suburb of Kopli a military zone. Although there were no German soldiers buried there but only German families that had lived in Estonia for hundreds of years the Russian army destroyed the ENTIRE cemetery which at that point contained more than 10,000 graves and tombstones.

    The gravestones were all taken away used to build wall and roads in Tallinn. Many coffins were opened and jewellery was removed from the dead bodies (some which had been dead for over a hundred years). No bodies were transferred to another location, no graves were set up elsewhere. The entire area was converted to a public park with no mention of the destroyed cemetery.

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    Jamestown continues protection of Estonia.

    Kovalyov and the delegation’s second-in-command, Leonid Slutsky --- first vice-chairman of the Duma’s International Affairs Committee --- publicly demanded the return of the Red Army monument to downtown Tallinn, the resignation of Estonia’s government, and a criminal investigation into the “repression” of rioters, whom the delegation leaders characterized as “anti-fascists.” They voiced these demands through the mass media while boarding the plane in Moscow for Tallinn and again during their meeting with Russian journalists in the Russian embassy in Tallinn. The demand for government change reminded Estonians of Moscow’s proconsuls unseating and installing Baltic governments in the past. Kovalyov and Slutsky replied dialectically that it was Estonia’s right to form a government and their right to call for the government to be changed.
    General (ret.) Kovalyov is identified as the head of the FSB from 1996 to 1998, the immediate predecessor to Vladimir Putin in that post.
    In Moscow, the Estonian embassy is under siege continuously since April 27 by some 200 activists of the Kremlin-sponsored youth organizations Nashi and Molodaya Gvardiya (“Ours” and “Young Guard”) as well as the youth branch of the United Russia party of power. The siege began one day after Estonian President Toomas Ilves stayed at the embassy while attending Boris Yeltsin’s funeral in Moscow. The police are allowing those activists to daub the embassy’s outer walls with paint and hostile slogans, play loud Soviet military music 24 hours a day, and control or interdict the entry of visitors. The embassy staff is locked inside amid threats against their safety. On May 1, a protester tore off the Estonian flag from the embassy’s nine meter high flagpole (embassy staff managed to hoist another flag). The Kremlin-appointed “Nashi” leader Vasily Yakemenko is taking time off from the Estonian embassy siege to appear on Channel One and other TV programs.
    Since April 30, picket leaders are publicly threatening to “dismantle” the Estonian embassy building and urging the Russian public via mass media to join in the “dismantling.”
    http://www.jamestown.org/edm/article...cle_id=2372137

    Purpose of strategy is to brake the will of opponent and make him agree with our demands. Our opponent Russia is using different methods to break our will. These are non-mllitary, but the situation may be described as war in a peacetime.

    The Kremlin’s assault on Estonia is intensifying on four levels of varying sophistication. These include: cyber attacks from within Russia’s Presidential Administration against the Estonian presidency’s and government’s electronic communications; political demands, backed by economic sanctions threats, to change the Estonian government; siege laid by Kremlin-created organizations to the Estonian Embassy in Moscow; and instigatory coverage of the April 27-29 violent riots of Russian youth in Tallinn by Russia’s state television.
    http://www.jamestown.org/edm/article...cle_id=2372136

  10. #50
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Default Russia to cut Estonia fuel transit amid statue row

    Russian disruption in the delivery of oil products

    Russian state railways said planned maintenance on the railway link could lead to disruption in the delivery of oil products. Russia has in the past been accused of using its energy resources as a political weapon against its neighbors.

    "We haven't imposed any economic sanctions against Estonia and have no plans to do so. But from May 1, we plan repair works. We therefore plan to change the delivery schedule," said a spokeswoman for Russian state railways.

  11. #51
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    Default Anti-Estonia Protests Escalate in Moscow

    Members of pro-Kremlin youth movement Nashi block an entrance to a Moscow newspaper building in order not to let Estonian Ambassador Marina Kaljurand leave on Wednesday, May 2, 2007.

    MOSCOW -- Young Russians staged raucous protests in Moscow on Wednesday to denounce neighboring Estonia for removing a Soviet war memorial from its capital, and the Estonian ambassador said pro-Kremlin activists tried to attack her as she arrived at a news conference.

    Sweden said its ambassador also was assaulted as he left the Estonian Embassy after a meeting Wednesday, saying protesters surrounding the compound kicked his car and tore off a Swedish flag.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  12. #52
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    Default Statement of the President of the Republic

    Well said, President Ilves !

    We can Agree Upon a Common Future

    I turn to Russia, Estonia’s neighbour, with a clear message – try to remain civilised! It is not customary in Europe to demand the resignation of the democratically elected government of another sovereign country. It is not customary in Europe to use computers belonging to public institutions for cyber-attacks against another country’s public institutions. In Europe, as well as in the rest of the civilised world, it is not considered possible to violate the Vienna Convention when an embassy of a small enough country is concerned.

    It is customary in Europe that differences, which do now and then occur between states, are solved by diplomats and politicians, not on the streets or by computer attacks. Those are the ways of other countries, somewhere else, not in Europe.

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    Stan - if we see any apartment buildings getting blown up in Russia in the next few months, I'd suggest getting the heck out of Dodge!

  14. #54
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    Default the work of Chechen terrorists

    Thanks, Tequila !
    It wasn't too long ago when the Russians said Estonian female 'freedom fighters' were at work in Chechnya. "Blonde with blue eyes, and sniper-like marksmanship" in the Russian press. I will have to find the article

    On the other hand, our EOD responses lately to 'suspect articles' has tripled.
    The last idiot was detained when the LE found a WWII hand grenade in the rioter's pocket. No explosive content, but great for parties !

    One never knows what to bring to these sort of events. Come prepared and bring the cold brews

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    Russia continues on its crazed neo-Soviet path to once again alienate the entire world. The Associated Press reports that the Kremlin has no problem allowing violent protests, as long as you are pro-Kremlin. If you are Other Russia doing this stuff, you meet 10,000 stormtroopers.
    http://russophobe.blogspot.com/2007/...t-fine-in.html

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    This is 3. try to post my mail. SWC is one of the few international pages that I can access at the moment. I don't know the reason why i can access this one. I do know that there is unbelivable huge cyber attack against Estonian internet service providers.

    To moderators. Last night I had couple beers wiht Stan and he said that there was misunderstaning among you about this topic. You doubted that this is not topic for SWC. I'll try to explain you my oppinon why this topic should belong here. Term "Small war" contains word "war" which means that there must be armed componend among insurgents to qualify political struggle as small war. In a sad way I can't attatch links from Rand and other prominent sites to illustrate my reasoning. During Vietnam war communists infiltrated across borders to make propaganda and change mind of peasants in villages. After brain wash those peasants were recruited as armed guerillas to fight govenment forces. Here the propaganda is done via Russian TV, radio, internet etc. Russian-speaking people are here brainwashed according to the info they recieve form Russia. Estonia's problem is that there are too few news services that can provide online info about events here. If Russian-speaking people in Estonia can't find non-violent political ways to express their oppinion there is threat that they can start acting violently. This happened already last week and at present time there is big effort to expalin to people what happened really. Today there was issued special Russian newspaper (100 000 numbers were printed. Normally dailys are much smaller). You can calm down moderates, but extremists are really crazy. Here is not Vietnam and communists are not spreading their word. We have here Russia which is spreading their word. Russian officials make no efforts to calm down the situation and make verbal offences against Estonia. In the end for us there is no difference because there is fight of different narratives. There was siege fo Estonian embassy in Moscow that lasted 1 week. For some commentators this reminded siege of US embassy in Tehran in 1979. Estonian russians are proxy for Russia.

    If you have red Rand's "Networks and net-wars" then you can find similar things now in and around Estonia. Estonia would be nice case study for next edition.

    Here are economical sanctions in progress, but I have no time to write about those.

    Damn, I still can't read BBC!!!

  17. #57
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Default NATO statement on Estonia

    A lot of us were beginning to wonder, if membership in the EU and NATO was nothing more than swimming pool rights and cocktails at 7.

    I'm relieved to see the USA and now NATO step up to the plate !

    NATO is deeply concerned by threats to the physical safety of Estonian diplomatic staff, including the Ambassador, in Moscow, as well as intimidation at the Estonian Embassy. These actions are unacceptable, and must be stopped immediately; tensions over the Soviet war memorial and graves in Estonia must be resolved diplomatically between the two countries. NATO urges the Russian authorities to implement their obligations under the Vienna Convention on diplomatic relations.

    West Takes Estonia Personally The West showed on Thursday it will not leave Tallinn alone in its current conflict with Moscow. The U.S., NATO, and the EU chairing state -- Germany -- stood up for Estonia, demanding that Russia stop “the inadmissible acts of violence near that country’s embassy”.

    Kaur,
    The Norweigian press ran and printed the IP links from Russia here.

    We're also having real bad connections and attacks via the Interior Ministry servers. I also understand that Postimees and Päevaleht are taking serious hits.
    Last edited by Stan; 05-04-2007 at 12:03 PM. Reason: Add Kommersant link

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    Yes, yes, yes, my internet is back and working!!!

    Here are Economist comments about events in Estonia and international arena.

    http://www.edwardlucas.blogspot.com/

    About cyber attack. IT-specialists says that the wave of attacs against Estonian servers was job of amateurs. There are some kind of programs that you can download from internet, then you can enter the website adress you want to disrupt and then you must only push "enter". It's good to now that FAPSI is not working on this, yet

  19. #59
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Default Russian Approval for Destruction of Monuments ?

    If Tallinn builds a department store or eases the flow of traffic, then this will be OK with the Russian Government, right ?

    Despite decrying "the desecration" of the Soviet memorial in Tallinn (which in reality has been moved to a military cemetery where it will be formally reopened with full military honors next week), local authorities in Moscow just two weeks ago had razed a monument and moved the graves of six heroes of the Soviet Union who had died defending Moscow in 1941. The reason? Their burial site stood in the way of a planned office facility. Similarly unnoticed was the action by city authorities in Stavropol to destroy a similar World War II monument about 18 months ago, in order to ease the flow of traffic.

    Selective as it may be, the protestors' action in defense of the the memory of the millions of Soviet soldiers and citizens who died fighting the Nazis from 1941-1945 may be part of a wider campaign to fan nationalist hysteria in Russia ahead of December's parliamentary and the presidential elections scheduled for next march. Just as in Soviet times, there's nothing like the specter of an external enemy to keep up "the unassailable unity of the party and the people."

  20. #60
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    Default Not exactly...

    Quote Originally Posted by kaur View Post
    To moderators. Last night I had couple beers wiht Stan and he said that there was misunderstaning among you about this topic. You doubted that this is not topic for SWC. I'll try to explain you my oppinon why this topic should belong here...
    No Kaur, that is not how it was. We asked that certain topics be posted to certain threads - that is all. I'd prefer not to rehash all that on the board.

    Dave

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