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Thread: Russian Bronze Statue in Estonia

  1. #81
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Default For Estonia's Ethnic Russians, Ties to Moscow Fading

    The passion that erupted in this storybook capital city and on the streets of Moscow in the past two weeks because of divided understanding of a shared history left Igor Britikovski cold.

    The 23-year-old ethnic Russian, who is an Estonian citizen, had never visited the bronze statue of a Soviet Red Army soldier whose relocation from central Tallinn to a military cemetery on April 26 sparked riots by ethnic Russians here and a siege of the Estonian Embassy in Moscow.
    "My parents are Russian, we have Russian traditions, but Estonia is my home," said Britikovski, who speaks fluent Estonian. "I can work with Russians, but work in Russia, live in Russia? Hardly. I don't feel any discrimination here."

    But others continue to feel like outsiders. "They let us live here, but with major obstacles," said Larisa Neshadimova, an activist with the group Night Watch, which held vigils at the statue to prevent its being defaced by Estonian nationalists. "When I supported independence for Estonia, I didn't think there would be so much discrimination."
    Indeed heart-felt and above all, honest.

    Having had to adjust to legal living and working permits in Estonia more than a decade ago, I understand just how difficult it is, but I don't agree herein.

    "To be honest, there's nothing bad about the relocation, a military cemetery is a better place," said Igor Reino, 36, a Russian speaker with an Estonian father who laid flowers at the statue with his daughter. "I just wished they had waited until after May 9 to move it. That would have been more civilized." Russia celebrates the World War II victory on May 9.

    Modestly larger than life with its head bowed in grief, the bronze statue of a Red Army soldier, created 60 years ago by an Estonian sculptor using an Estonian model, seemed an unlikely catalyst for the anger it has inflamed.
    There's a lot of room for debate regarding the timing of this move. I have my mere doubts that the movement, regardless of the date would have made much difference with public opinion.

    But Vovrenko's daughter, a doctor, and his granddaughter, a high school student, both speak fluent Estonian as well as Russian, he said. "Life will be much easier for my granddaughter," he said, noting that she also is learning German.
    Well said and done. Most of the unpopular discussion regarding ethnic Russians among Estonians is, their lack of desire or attempt to even try the Estonian language. I would tend to agree.

    A little effort is in order...on both sides.

  2. #82
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    Professor Steven Blank, The US Army War College, writes so:

    I fully believe that it was a misconceived Estonian idea to remove the statue from its place and that it represents an unnecessary affront to Russia. But the actual scenario of events here is not as Vladimir portrayed it. He omits the violent demonstrations in Tallinn that led to the immediate removal of the statute and the fact that they were generally believed to be orchestrated and organized from outside Estonia. Similarly the reaction of Nashi which functions, truth be told, as a kind of Putin jugend or new komsomol, was clearly organized by the Russian government. Furthermore this episode has a long history behind it. Russia wants to portray itself as being again the aggrieved party that is regularly insulted and injured by the West which has no regard for its interests. But that argument does not stand up to scrutiny. It is very clear that Russia and Estonia have had bad relations for a long time because politicians on both sides gain from exploiting tensions. But it also true that Moscow has tried regularly to pressure and intimidate all of the Baltic states and restrict their freedom of action and politics or to subvert them from within. Russia still refuses to accept its role in the Baltic after 1939, preferring to focus exclusively on the liberation of the area from the Nazis in 1944-45, but not on its unending series of crimes that were committed by the Soviet government. Its press still publishes justifications for the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact or for the take over of the Baltic states, all this betraying a larger failure to come to terms with its history.
    The larger contrast and comparison with Germany and Japan is telling. The FRG has openly and repeatedly announced the responsibility of its predecessors for their crimes and that it acknowledges that Germany is forever burdened by those crimes. As a result Germany is not feared and is fully integrated into Europe. Japan, on the other hand refuses to come clean about its crimes in the 1931-45 period and as a result is still regarded with suspicion across Asia. The Putin regime, eager to whitewash the NKVD, KGB and crimes of the Stalin era, still cannot bring itself to open up the archives and tell the truth. Until it or following regimes do so, Russia will be regarded by all of Europe with suspicion and at home it will not be able to overcome the shackles of Leninism and Stalinism. While Estonia may have acted provocatively or in misconceived way, until Russia comes to terms with its past its future will always remain under a shadow.

  3. #83
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    I'd like to add here link to new publication issued by Nashi movement. This movement put Estonian embassy under siege in Moscow. Take look at the sponsors list in the end. No comments!

    http://publicoffender.livejournal.com/755.html

  4. #84
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Kaur, Welcome back (from whereever !),
    An excellent article and read from the Doctor. But I can't find the link at the War College.

    Could you get it again ? He's published a number of good articles on Russia, but this one's not there (or I'm brain dead...it is Friday afterall)

  5. #85
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Default Hunting Estonians in Russia :eek:

    In Pskov, Russia the Estonian consulate was fired upon with a hunting rifle

    For those of you that have yet to complete your Estonian language classes, the following free translation is provided herein

    The Pskov office of Estonia's head consulate in St. Petersburg was likely hit with a hunting rifle in the early morning hours this Thursday.

    According to anonymous law enforcement sources, the agency reported that the bullet hit the window, leaving a bullet hole and then ricocheted against a wall. A flattened bullet from a hunting rifle has been found.

    Deputy prosecutor of the city of Pskov, Nikolai Konov stated that the window had indeed been broken and a police report filed. Still, according to Konov, it is too early to tell what caused the damage. He added, that as soon as a report was received, law enforcement officials were dispatched to the scene.

    Konov assured that the Prosecutor's office has subpoenaed all materials involving the case.

    The Estonian Ministry of Foreign Affairs told BNS that the window had been damaged, and did not specify the method.

    The MFA expressed concern on Thursday over the attack.

    The Estonian MFA demanded that the Russian authorities immediately take steps to guarantee the security of the Pskov office located in St. Petersburg.

    Minister of Foreign Affairs Urmas Paet stated that the continuing attacks against Estonia's diplomatic representations in Russia is unacceptable.

    The caption below (Estonia in the EU's pocket) reads: Well, can we now talk man to man ?!
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  6. #86
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    With relative calm restored and the cyber attacks under more control, the never-ending jokes and good photography from Estonians are circulating.

    Today's mail included this one regarding the visual differences between just chillin' or just hanging around. Those face down, well, they're chillin'
    Last edited by Stan; 09-11-2007 at 10:51 AM.

  7. #87
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Default Playing Estonia's political cards

    We are in the EU and Nato and it is now not possible to influence Estonia by force.
    In his third and final report from Estonia, the BBC News website's Patrick Jackson finds two sharply contrasting views of the Soviet statue dispute within the main party of the governing coalition.

    Tallinn's violent scenes over the relocation of a Soviet war memorial last month must have come out of the blue for many in the outside world.

    Surely Estonia, independent of Moscow for 16 years and a proud EU and Nato member, had become just another stable, settled, picturesque small state in northern Europe?

    Depending on who you ask, the unrest was stoked either by a resurgent Moscow, seeking to reassert its influence through the large ethnic Russian minority, or by a section of Tallinn's political elite, using the Soviet legacy to win elections.

    Estonian Foreign Minister Urmas Paet points the finger very clearly at Russia.
    Unfortunately, Russia's Foreign Minister Lavrov doesn't quite see it that way:

    Lavrov letter slams EU over Estonia


    In a letter of complaint to member countries of the European Union, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov expressed indignation at solidarity within the European Union (EU) and demanded Estonia's punishment, it appears from the letter published in the daily Eesti Paevaleht.

    The minister expressed indignation because many Western countries supported Estonia and tolerated activity of the government at relocation of the monument.

    "The Western countries give their tacit approval to the fact that by equaling the heroism of soldier-liberators and the crimes of Nazis and their henchmen, Estonian authorities were attempting to rewrite history and reinterpret the role of the anti-Hitler coalition in the victory over fascism in World War Two,” the letter said.

    “Soldier liberator” is the term being used for the Bronze Soldier monument by Russia’s officialdom and media of late. The Baltic Times has not seen the term used historically in connection with the monument.

  8. #88
    Council Member marct's Avatar
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    Hi Stan,

    Thanks for the post! It's always fascinating to look at how hese types of things are patterned. Honestly, I don't think AQ is doing this, but...

    Marc
    Sic Bisquitus Disintegrat...
    Marc W.D. Tyrrell, Ph.D.
    Institute of Interdisciplinary Studies,
    Senior Research Fellow,
    The Canadian Centre for Intelligence and Security Studies, NPSIA
    Carleton University
    http://marctyrrell.com/

  9. #89
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Default 12 steps to Russian emancipation

    "Boris Berezovsky argues that conflict between Russia and Estonia is more then a spat between Russia and one of its former satellites. Berezovsky believes the cause of the conflict emanates from the unresolved issues of modern Russia. Denial by the Kremlin, and by President Vladimir Putin, of the Soviet regime's criminal nature prevents then getting on the program. If they could make this first step, there would be only eleven left:"

    1. Admit you are powerless
    2. Believe that a power greater than you can restore your sanity
    3. Make a decision to turn your will and our lives over to the care of a greater power
    4. Make a searching and fearless moral inventory of yourself and your people
    5. Admit to yourself and all human beings the exact nature of your wrongs
    6. Remove all these defects from your culture
    7. Humbly asked other countries to remove their cultural shortcomings
    8. Make a list of the countries you have harmed and become willing to make amends to them all
    9. Make direct amends to such countries wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others
    10. Continued to take a national inventory of where you went wrong and promptly admit it
    11. Meditate to improve your conscious contact with other countries and for the power to carry it out
    12. Have a cultural awakening as a part of these steps and carry this message to other compulsive imperialistic nations

  10. #90
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    So little Estonia was used as a ruse to distract from silencing even more Kremlin critics? That Putin is a sly one.

    Got this from an Estonian site the other day.

    That's a Ukrainian famine victim, Stalin and Lavrenti Beria.
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  11. #91
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Thanks for post, SWJED !

    The St. Petersburg Times finally has a good article:
    Seven Journalists Quit Jobs in Protest

    MOSCOW — Seven journalists have resigned from Russian News Service after new management censored their reports about a Dissenters’ March and a dispute with Estonia, among other things, several of the journalists said Friday.

    Khan said management had accused him of siding with Estonia in his coverage of protests held by the pro-Kremlin Nashi youth group outside the country’s Moscow embassy in late April and early May.

    Khan also said management had refused to air his reports about a World War II monument being relocated in Khimki, a town on Moscow’s northern outskirts, and an opposition Dissenters’ March broken up by riot police in Moscow in April.

    “I realized that I would cease to exist as a professional [journalist] if I stayed,” Khan said by telephone.

  12. #92
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Default Russia slams the door on all things Estonian

    War monument dispute escalates into boycott

    MOSCOW // More than a half-dozen types of cheese disappeared from behind deli counters. Small bottles of chili powder, garlic seasoning and lemon pepper - indeed, every spice with the blue Santa Maria label - vanished from supermarket shelves. Old Tallinn liqueur, a sweet staple in a punchy cocktail called the hammer and sickle, suddenly was harder to come by.

    The word had come down from on high: Estonian products are no longer welcome in Russia.

    Moscow Mayor Yuri Luzhkov urged businesses and consumers to shun Estonian goods and sever all ties with enterprises - even cultural ones - across the border. Within days, some of the largest grocery chains in the Russian capital had yanked hundreds of products and stuck signs in their windows saying they wouldn't sell Estonian.

  13. #93
    Council Member marct's Avatar
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    Has anyone been tracking escalations in other areas? Are we seeing hold ups at the border? Increased muggings of Estonians in Russian or (my guess) Russians in Estonia? You know, this is following a script that Lenin wrote and was copy edited by Trotsky .

    Marc
    Sic Bisquitus Disintegrat...
    Marc W.D. Tyrrell, Ph.D.
    Institute of Interdisciplinary Studies,
    Senior Research Fellow,
    The Canadian Centre for Intelligence and Security Studies, NPSIA
    Carleton University
    http://marctyrrell.com/

  14. #94
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Hi Marc,
    Unfortunately only one deportation from Estonia

    There is however news that Russia has again permitted large vehicle traffic to transit Estonia. Word has it there were no other neighboring countries Russia could use to bypass Estonia. They obviously forgot the geographical importance of Estonia over the last say 800 years

    I'll keep looking !

    Regards, Stan

  15. #95
    Council Member marct's Avatar
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    Hi Stan,

    Cool, thanks. I have a gut guess that you will start seeing actions taken in Russia against Estonians being treated as "understandable" (e.g. muggings, vandalism, etc.). The NAZIs used a similar tactic in 1931-32, and the courts supported it. There will also probably be exaggerations of "reprisals" against the ethnic Russian population in Estonia. One thing the Estonians may consider is to try and mobilize some of the ethnic Russians to start an IO campaign against Putin's actions and propaganda - possibly in Russian forums.

    Marc
    Sic Bisquitus Disintegrat...
    Marc W.D. Tyrrell, Ph.D.
    Institute of Interdisciplinary Studies,
    Senior Research Fellow,
    The Canadian Centre for Intelligence and Security Studies, NPSIA
    Carleton University
    http://marctyrrell.com/

  16. #96
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Default Mobilization of Ethnic Russians ?

    Jeez, Marc, that should be a good one to watch from say...250 meters

    One of my favorite blogs, Itching for Eestimaa:

    Scroll down to '4 AM at Heathrow Airport'
    Like Russian policy in the past, and as the perfect metaphor of the Internet attacks provides, they intend to attack their target by overwhelming it with force and/or by sowing instability with the clear, logical goal of instating its control within the mask of chaos. Imagine a poison that works by making the individual appear to suffer from food poisoning, then reveals its true identity by the time that it is too late. That, my friends, is Russian foreign policy.

    But how does a small nation counter that policy and how, in particular, can Estonia survive when the Kremlin is allegedly regaining power? I have been pondering this, and I think that it is important now that Estonia defines its goals with regards to this cynical power in Russia and acts consistently according to those redefined goals. Some of you may not like what I am about to say, but they are thoughts, and thoughts that need airing.

    1. It is time to accept the Russian government for what it is.
    2. It's time to dig in for a propaganda war.
    3. It's time to renew the commitments to pan-Scandinavianism and pan-Europeanism.
    4. Reject Conflict, Embrace Progress.
    Last edited by Stan; 05-23-2007 at 08:55 PM.

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    Economist columnist Edward Lucas writes in his article "Back to the Cold War -Putin's Russia threat to Britain" this way:


    Last month, Estonia's government decided to move a Soviet war memorial in the centre of the capital, Tallinn, to a nearby military cemetery.
    That prompted demonstrations by local Russians, egged on by the Kremlin's spies and provocateurs, which soon turned into riots and looting.
    In the chocolate-box streets of medieval Tallinn, familiar to many British holidaymakers as one of the friendliest and most charming capitals of Europe, drunken Russian hooligans emptied shops and burnt cars, chanting "It's all ours" and "Soviet Union for ever".
    In Moscow, thugs blockaded and attacked the Estonian embassy - a flagrant breach of the Vienna convention. When the Swedish ambassador visited, they tried to turn over his car.
    But that was only a taste of the havoc to be wreaked in cyberspace. Estonia's most vital computers experienced a cyber-attack on a scale and ferocity unknown in the history of the internet.
    Techniques normally employed by cyber-criminals, such as huge remote-controlled networks of hijacked computers, were used to cripple vital public services, paralyse the banking system and cut off the government's websites from the outside world.

    By cutting Estonia off from the world, the Kremlin's propagandists could freely peddle their poisonous lies about a "fascist revival" in this peaceful, prosperous and democratic country.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...70&ito=newsnow

  18. #98
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Default Behind Putin's Estonia Complex

    Nothing seems to make President Vladimir Putin angrier these days than Estonia.

    During a joint news conference with European Union leaders in Samara on Friday, Putin twice diverged from the question he was asked to return to the issue of Estonia. Both times he talked about the stabbing death of an ethnic Russian during rioting last month over Estonia's decision to move the Bronze Soldier war memorial out of central Tallinn.

    Putin did not focus on the stabbing, which may well have been the work of other ethnic Russians. Instead, he complained that the protester had received no medical help and been allowed to bleed to death on the street. "This constitutes a willful crime, and we demand that the perpetrators be brought to justice," Putin said.
    Putin seems to have taken personally Estonia's decision to move the memorial to fallen Red Army soldiers. This may be because he sees it not only as an affront to his country but as an affront to the memory of his father. As Putin once told it, his father was betrayed by Estonians during the war.

    Before he was first elected in 2000, Putin gave a series of interviews to three Russian journalists for a book called "First Person." In the first chapter, he talks about his father. During the war, he was in an NKVD sabotage battalion operating behind German lines and was sent as part of a group of 28 people to carry out an operation in Estonian territory. They succeeded in blowing up a supply train and were able to hide in the woods, but eventually they ran out of food and turned to the local population. Estonians brought them food but then gave them up to the Germans. Only four people in the group survived, including Putin's father, who hid in a bog, breathing through a reed, to escape detection by Nazi soldiers who were searching for them with dogs.
    Much more at the link

  19. #99
    Council Member marct's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stan View Post
    Nothing seems to make President Vladimir Putin angrier these days than Estonia.

    Much more at the link
    I just love his "logic" in saying that it couldn't be an occupation because Germany gave it to the Soviets . It is comforting, quoth he is in slightly sarcastic voice, for me to know how much value Putin places on history and how he recognizes the acts of his political progenitors - Stalin and Hitler .

    Marc
    Sic Bisquitus Disintegrat...
    Marc W.D. Tyrrell, Ph.D.
    Institute of Interdisciplinary Studies,
    Senior Research Fellow,
    The Canadian Centre for Intelligence and Security Studies, NPSIA
    Carleton University
    http://marctyrrell.com/

  20. #100
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Default The Redcoats are coming! The Redcoats are coming!

    Hi Marc !

    He actually has Estonia a tad concerned.

    Although somebody should remind Putin that in the Spring of 88 or 89, Gorbachev cancelled history exams around the country because the history books being used were so inaccurate

    Aah, no worries this week mate, the HMS Illustrious is in Tallinn's harbor
    Last edited by Stan; 09-11-2007 at 10:50 AM.

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