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Thread: Russian Bronze Statue in Estonia

  1. #101
    Moderator Steve Blair's Avatar
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    Nice picture, stan!

    And it's funny sometimes how things seem to repeat themselves in Europe every 50 years or so. Must be something about old habits.....
    "On the plains and mountains of the American West, the United States Army had once learned everything there was to learn about hit-and-run tactics and guerrilla warfare."
    T.R. Fehrenbach This Kind of War

  2. #102
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Default U.S. national sought in riot murder

    Thanks, Steve. It's a real small harbor, so getting a good shot is pretty easy.

    New Subject:

    Estonian police are looking for a U.S. citizen who is believed to have a video of the incident during the April Tallinn riots where Russian Dmitri Ganin was fatally stabbed. Police do not have a name for the person and believe he is no longer in the country.

    Another U.S. citizen identified only as "Valerie" is also known to have filmed the riots but is not thought to have been present during the murder. "Valerie" is further identified as a U.S. Fullbright Scholar who was or is visiting Estonia.

  3. #103
    Council Member Tc2642's Avatar
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    Default Just thought i'd chip in

    Talking of Nazi's and riots,

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/russia/art...089413,00.html

    Quite worrying in Russia at the moment, plus the fact that it was most likely a Russian agent who carried out the first case of nuclear terrorism in Britain against Litvinenko, (Andrei Lugovoi is now wanted by British Police but it is highly doubtful that Russia will extradite him. Although if they put an Interpol arrest warrant out for him it would severely restrict his ability to travel).

    Looking at this case in Estonia and other various actions it seems that Russia is once more wanting to flex it's muscles somewhat.

    BTW, didn't Putin give a toast to Stalin saying he was a great man some years back?

  4. #104
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Default loyal son of Yeltsin family

    Thanks, TC. For some reason this story doesn't surprise my Estonian counterparts. Probably a bit used to just about anything coming from the Kremlin these days.

    As I recall Putin's toast to Stalin took place in late 2000.

    The Estonian press tends to beat up Putin as often as possible. Last week's article reminded readers to keep in mind, that Putin is first and foremost a loyal son of the "Yeltsin family". However, this family of military and other 'special services' are nothing more than henchmen engaged in exacting quid pro quo. The article concludes that all of Putin’s past, present and future dealings must be viewed in this light, or you'll be lost trying to figure him out.

    Regards, Stan

    Quote Originally Posted by Tc2642 View Post
    Talking of Nazi's and riots,

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/russia/art...089413,00.html

    Quite worrying in Russia at the moment, plus the fact that it was most likely a Russian agent who carried out the first case of nuclear terrorism in Britain against Litvinenko, (Andrei Lugovoi is now wanted by British Police but it is highly doubtful that Russia will extradite him. Although if they put an Interpol arrest warrant out for him it would severely restrict his ability to travel).

    Looking at this case in Estonia and other various actions it seems that Russia is once more wanting to flex it's muscles somewhat.

    BTW, didn't Putin give a toast to Stalin saying he was a great man some years back?
    Last edited by Stan; 05-28-2007 at 02:46 PM.

  5. #105
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Default European Parliament passes resolution supporting Estonia

    "The European Parliament on Thursday passed a resolution expressing support to the Estonian government and firm solidarity with Estonia in its row with Russia."

    The deputies said they regard as unacceptable Russian authorities' attempts to interfere into Estonia's internal affairs and appealed to Russia to observe the Vienna Convention without any exceptions. The deputies condemned Russian authorities' unpolished and openly hostile language and attempts to use economic pressure on Estonia as a foreign policy instrument.

    The deputies said they were disturbed by the inadequate protection of the Estonian embassy in Moscow by the Russian authorities and physical attacks by Nashi demonstrators against the Estonian ambassador.

    The resolution states that the Russian authorities' hostile language with respect to Estonia is in sharp contrast with the principles of international conduct and affects EU-Russian relations as a whole.

    The members of parliament appealed to the Russian government to hold an open an unprejudiced dialog with Central and East European countries on the history of the 20th century and crimes against humanity, including crimes against humanity committed by totalitarian Communism.

    The resolution garnered 460 votes in favor and 31 against, with 38 abstentions, the press service of the European parliament told BNS.
    Much more at the link

  6. #106
    Council Member Tc2642's Avatar
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    Default A Question?

    Thanks for replying Stan, I do seem to recall a paper that I read some years ago about a possible Sino-Russian/Iranian axis developing against the new European/NATO members who were previously Warsaw Pact countries, Ill rummage about and try to find it.

    Quote Originally Posted by kaur View Post
    Column from last Economist "Cyberwarfare update."



    http://edwardlucas.blogspot.com/2007...re-update.html
    In addition, may I ask any of the other members of this board, but is this the first time such a massive cyber attack has been launched by a nation state against another state or are their other examples of this ilk?

    Regards

    TC2642

  7. #107
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tc2642 View Post
    Thanks for replying Stan, I do seem to recall a paper that I read some years ago about a possible Sino-Russian/Iranian axis developing against the new European/NATO members who were previously Warsaw Pact countries, Ill rummage about and try to find it.



    In addition, may I ask any of the other members of this board, but is this the first time such a massive cyber attack has been launched by a nation state against another state or are their other examples of this ilk?

    Regards

    TC2642
    TC, I'm no historian, but recall reading about "The long good bye" between Russia and Iraq. Nowadays a quick deal or two for nuclear fuel with Iran ?

    Just a week ago most Estonian's were laughing at the deal gone sour "Russia nuclear delay angers Iran". Even Iran can't conclude a deal with Putin

    Russian state-owned firm Atomstroiexport announced on Monday that a shipment of nuclear fuel would not be delivered as scheduled in March because of delays in payment by Iran.

    The company also said the launch of the reactor, due in September, would be put back two months to November because of the dispute over financing.
    The NATO dudes that were here told the MOI they had never seen an attack of this magnitud before. Was this the largest ? The Guardian's sources think so !

    A three-week wave of massive cyber-attacks on the small Baltic country of Estonia, the first known incidence of such an assault on a state, is causing alarm across the western alliance, with Nato urgently examining the offensive and its implications.

  8. #108
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Default Estonia blacklists over 2,000 visitors

    SWJED, Thanks for the post !
    Seems all the US newspapers are jumping on the bandwagon. We even made the 'Drudge Report' (not that I consider that a compliment, and it only links to the International Herald Tribune).

    TALLINN, May 28 (RIA Novosti)

    The Estonian Citizenship and Migration Department has imposed a permanent ban on 398 visitors, and a temporary ban on 1,615 potential comers, a department spokesperson said Monday.

    Anne-Maarja Olei said the ban mostly covered Russians, Ukrainians and Armenians, some of whom could pose a threat to Estonian sovereignty. Foreigners who have been arrested by the police over public order violations were also put on the black list.

    The Estonian Citizenship and Migration Department said 11 people, including three Russians, were extradited from Estonia in April.

    Relations between Estonia and Russia have been marred since the scandal around the removal of a Soviet-era memorial from central Tallinn shortly before VE Day celebrations. The removal sparked violent protests from the ex-Soviet republic's ethnic Russian minority. One person was killed and several dozen injured in clashes with police April 27. Moscow issued strong protests, with some parliamentarians calling for cutting diplomatic ties with Tallinn.

  9. #109
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Default The EU and US ban Nashi leader

    According to recent AP wire reports, subsequent to Konstantin Goloskokov's claim that he was behind one of the cyber attacks against Estonia's internet last month, the European Union and U.S. has banned the Nashi youth movement leader from entering their territories.

    Goloskokov thought there would be no legal repercussions from his actions because Transnistri would would not prosecute him.

    Well, think again

  10. #110
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Default US congress passes resolution supporting Estonia

    Resolution expresses support for Estonia amid tension with Moscow

    The U.S. House of Representatives unanimously passed a resolution supporting Estonia amid tension with Russia since the removal in April of a monument commemorating a Red Army victory in World War II.

    The resolution, which passed 412-0, expressed solidarity with Estonia and condemned violence in Tallinn, the capital of Estonia, and Moscow.

    Speaking on the House floor ahead of the vote, Democratic Rep. Tom Lantos, chairman of the House Foreign Affairs committee, was more blunt.

    "Today, we in Congress join our friends in Europe in expressing our strong disapproval of the unjustified and unacceptable Russian attacks against Estonia," he said.

  11. #111
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Default Construction works have begun at the Garrison cemetery in Tallinn

    Today construction of the lime stone wall started at the Garrison cemetery in Tallinn. The lime stone wall will be situated behind the bronze monument that was placed to the cemetery on April, 30.

    The constructed wall will be adjusted to the Garrison cemetery in the best possible way, taking into account the surrounding environment, the lime stone masonry surrounding the site of the area and the high furbishing. The War Graves Committee reached the decision at their meeting on May, 18.

    The digging of a trench at the grave site, accompanied by the casting of a reinforced concrete slab foundation and the construction of a concrete block structure on armour netting, covered with axed slab, is required for the building of the grave marker. As requested by construction experts, the bronze monument will be fitted onto a specially prepared temporary foundation, located on the adjacent ground.

    As the foundation will be built on fine sand, geologists will take soil samples before the commencement of works to determine which layers of soil will remain under the foundation of the wall and the depth of the load-bearing layer of soil.

    The trench will be cut down to the load-bearing layer of soil; excessive soil from the trench will be removed. All the safety requirements will be observed at the site.

    The site where the technical equipment is in use will be enclosed by a 2 m high mesh fence, extending to 300 metres, for the period of construction works.

    The work is due for completion in the second half of June.

  12. #112
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Default US tells Russia not to use threats against Baltic states

    The United States told Russia Thursday not to threaten the former Soviet Baltic states of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania with attacks and sanctions but to discuss differences in a "civilized" way.

    During a Reception Marking the 85th Anniversary of U.S.-Baltic State Relations


    Although Russia denies it slapped sanctions after an April row over a Soviet war memorial, trade between the two neighbors fell sharply and the small Baltic state felt the pinch.

    Moscow has generally been unhappy with its democratic neighbors Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania after they joined NATO in 2004.

    "Their democratic ideals and their democratic success is not a threat to anyone least of all their great neighbor Russia," said Fried, who is in charge of European and Eurasian affairs in the State Department.

    "The Russians sometimes say that we are trying to surround them, encircle them but is it not in the best interest of Russia to be, quote, surrounded by peaceful, prospering democracies."

    "Doesn't Russian history suggest that threats from the West do not come from democracies but dictatorships and nationalistic dictatorships?" Fried asked.

  13. #113
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Default Russian press review: June 21

    PRO-KREMLIN YOUTH UNDER INVESTIGATION

    Russia's prosecutor general's office has launched an investigation into the activities of the pro-Kremlin youth organizations Nashi and Young Guard after complaints that the groups' recent protests promoted extremism and interethnic discord. A leader from the liberal Yabloko party's youth wing appealed to the prosecutor's office, claiming that a prolonged anti-Estonian campaign by the youth groups violated Russia's extremism law. The two groups "practically laid siege" to Estonia's embassy in Moscow and attempted to seal off the countries' shared border following the relocation of a World War II-era Soviet monument in Tallinn, the Estonian capital, the newspaper wrote.

  14. #114
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Default Russian Activists seek to name and shame Estonian police

    "TALLINN – A pro-Russian pressure group says it intends to identify and “punish” police officers on duty during the recent Bronze Soldier disturbances."

    Members of the Night Vigil, a group consisting mainly of Russian-speaking young people set up to defend the Soviet-era war memorial in Tallinn, say they are trying to obtain a computer program that could single out police officers in video footage of the riots.

    Night Vigil member Yuri Zhuravlyov told the Russian-language daily MK Estonia: "Our aim is to help restore justice. We want the culprits to be punished."

    Zhuravlyov himself was one of the protestors detained on the night of April 27 and claims that he witnessd police brutality.

    The activist did not rule out the possibility of turning to Russia’s law enforcement bodies for technical assistance.

    However, an unnamed source told the Postimees daily that Night Vigil's real aim goes far beyond collecting credible evidence and starting legal action against police officers.

    “Night Vigil can't live with the knowledge that many Russian-speaking officers stood in the ranks of the police,” said the source, who further suggested the organization's plan is to identify ethnically Russian police and then post their names and pictures on the Internet.

    Security police superintendent Irina Mikson said the security police is aware of the Night Vigil plans. She added that Night Vigil, together with the Human Rights Information Center that is collecting complaints about police violence during the April disturbances, are working in Russia’s interests.

    According to the security police yearbook for 2004, the Tallinn-based HRIC is indirectly guided by the Russian embassy and financed by Russia.

  15. #115
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Default Soldiers' remains finally laid to rest

    The storm of protest a few weeks ago seemed a long time ago at this somber ceremony.

    Eight coffins containing the remains of Soviet soldiers exhumed at the former Bronze Soldier's memorial (now referred to as the bronze grave marker) have been reburied at the Defense Forces Cemetery.

    Minister of Defense Jaak Aaviksoo made a statement for the media. “Today, the remains of eight Red Army soldiers have finally been laid to rest. We truly hope that this will be their last resting place. We are relieved that their remains will no longer be exploited against the sovereign Republic of Estonia. We have fulfilled our obligation and have provided a final resting place for the soldiers.”

    The diplomatic corps, various defense attachés, representatives of veterans' organizations, the war graves maintenance association, the War Graves Committee and the Estonian Red Cross also attended the ceremony.

    In continuation of their passive-agressive stance on all things Estonian, no representative of the Russian embassy or government attended. The Russian ambassador and members of the Estonian associations of Soviet war veterans will organize their own memorial service in the coming days.

    A plaque was placed at the gravesite with the identified names of the deceased inscribed in the Cyrillic alphabet, and the exact location of each grave is indicated on a map.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  16. #116
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Default But friendly prices to elsewhere...

    This billboard in St. Petersburg, Russia makes it quite clear how Russians feel about Estonia lately. This is a travel agency advertisement and the billboard offers no trips to Estonia, but offers "friendly prices to other destinations."
    Attached Images Attached Images

  17. #117
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Default Estonian Call Up of Waffen SS Vets

    An interesting turn of events for the Baltic States following the Tallinn riots and Russian threats.

    Estonian veterans
    of Waffen SS legions and "Forest Brothers" met this past weekend for the 15th time, where authorities told them that the State counts on them when building up national consciousness and defending the homeland.

    Approx. 300 veterans of Estonia's 20th Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS and other Wehrmacht units including a few Waffen SS veterans from Austria and Norway gathered near Vaivara’s Sinimäe, the site of a major battle between Nazi and Soviet Armys in summer of 44.

    Estonian Defense Minister Jaak Aaviksoo greeted the participants in absentee and called upon them to defend the homeland from enemies both at home and abroad. The Minister also stated that Estonia needs them right now, referring to the recent riots triggered by relocating the Red Army's bronze statue from downtown Tallinn to a military cemetery.

    Some great photos at the link !

  18. #118
    Council Member tequila's Avatar
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    Wow. That sort of Nazi love makes me abandon any positive thoughts of Estonia I've had previously, for sure. The Estonians would be better off not publicizing this side of their nationalism in the West.

  19. #119
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    Stan, thanks for post and tequila reacts like normal foreigner. If you tell someone SS, then it is automatically bad, bad, bad. Why Estonians joined German troops? Little explanation by Wikipedia.

    Estonia was occupied by the Soviet Union in June 1940, [5] [6] after Stalin gained Hitler's agreement to divide Eastern Europe into "spheres of special interest" according to the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and its secret protocol. [7] [8] On September 24, 1939, warships of the Red Navy appeared off Estonian ports and Soviet bombers began a threatening patrol over Tallinn and the nearby countryside.[9] The Estonian government was forced to give their assent to an agreement which allowed the USSR to establish military bases and station 25,000 troops on Estonian soil for "mutual defence".
    Subsequently, the country was occupied by Nazi Germany from 1941 to 1944. Although initially the Germans were perceived as liberators from the USSR and its repressions by most Estonians in hope for restoration of the countries independence, it was soon realized that they were but another occupying power. Germans pillaged the country for the war effort and unleashed the Holocaust Estonia was incorporated into the German province of Ostland. That made many Estonians not willing to side with the Nazis join the Finnish army to fight against the Soviet Union. Finnish Infantry Regiment 200 AKA (Estonian: soomepoisid) was formed out of Estonian volunteers in Finland. Many Estonians were recruited in to the German armed forces (including Waffen-SS), the majority did so only in 1944 when the threat of a new invasion of Estonia by the Red Army had become imminent and it was clear that Germany would not win the war.[25] -
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonia...and_Annexation

    Estonian joined German units as last attempt to avoid occupation by Soviet troops second time in 5 years.

    Stan, there were 2 gatherings at the same time.
    "Vabadusvõitlejate XV kokkutulekult Toilas ja Eesti Relvagrenaderide diviisi veteranide kokkutulekult Sinimägedes."
    Last edited by kaur; 07-30-2007 at 09:02 AM.

  20. #120
    Council Member tequila's Avatar
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    If you tell someone SS, then it is automatically bad, bad, bad.
    Yes, pretty much.

    To me the only proper response upon seeing German soldiers looting my country and murdering my countrymen would be to start killing German soldiers, not join their most murderous units.

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