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Thread: Russian Bronze Statue in Estonia

  1. #121
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    It's sad fact that for Estonians there were no options to join western resistance organisations to resist German and Soviet (like France and other European countires had). So, after seeing Germans retreating and after experience of Soviet occupation in 1940-41, there was only 1 chance to resist Soviets. It was bad choice, that I should protect here and now. After II WW British intelligence tried to organise something here, but this failed because of different reasons. Local resistance waned in the 50s, after last hope of western help had gone.

  2. #122
    Council Member tequila's Avatar
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    The Soviets were gone in 1941. The Germans occupied Estonia from 1941-1945 and turned the place into Ostland. They had no intention of freeing Estonia and made that abundantly clear. Yet Estonians, rather than killing Germans, joined them.

    It's sad fact that for Estonians there were no options to join western resistance organisations to resist German and Soviet (like France and other European countires had). So, after seeing Germans retreating and after experience of Soviet occupation in 1940-41, there was only 1 chance to resist Soviets.
    There should have been a lot more killing of Germans going on between 1941-1943.

    That Estonia chooses today to celebrate those who made the spectacularly wrong choice of joining the most genocidal military organization in European history doesn't reflect well on it. Tom Odom noted that the only proper use for the Lord's Resistance Army or the Hutu genocidaires in Africa was as fertilizer. There is no difference between those men and the SS in the 1940s, except the SS had prettier uniforms and better training.

  3. #123
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    tequila, here is reading about resistance if you take look at pages 16-17 "General Considerations"

    http://www.historycommission.ee/temp...lusions_en.pdf

  4. #124
    Council Member tequila's Avatar
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    Your link doesn't provide any evidence of any Estonian resistance to the Nazis. Indeed, there seems to have been quite a bit of collaboration, including the creation of a full Estonian SS division and several police battalions which participated partially or in full in the Holocaust.

    Even "passive resistance" surely beats active joining in with Nazism.

    Regardless of the past, that present-day Estonian political figures choose to celebrate these Nazi collaborators does not reflect well on them or their nation.

  5. #125
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Hey Kaur and Tequila !

    Jeez, I never thought this would go Tango Uniform so quickly before I managed to digest my lunch

    Not being Estonian or old enough to have 'been there', I can only relate to my 12 years, what I've read, heard and seen. Historically speaking (I'm not condoning anything herein), the choices were occupation by the Red Army or, what is currently termed as once being a German Sympathizer and to some extent, a Forest Brother (Baltic Partisan). I doubt these sympathizers were merely volunteers, but being in these units supported the removal of the Red Army from Estonia.

    The gatherings or venue this past Sunday (there were two as Kaur pointed out) were not to celebrate SS units or Nazi Germany, but in memory of those Estonians in those units who fought side-by-side in the belief of freedom from Russia. IMO, the Minister’s statement reads “we need more patriots like you and take action in our country so that Estonians recognize the need for patriotism and Estonian freedom from future occupation.”

    I don’t know that I would compare Tom’s (or my) experience with the Rwandan Genocide to Estonia’s decision between German or yet again Red Army occupation.

    As I reflect on my time here I've concluded it's a pity that such a small country should find itself a graveyard of monuments for lost causes.

  6. #126
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    Here explains Wikipedia German occupation in Estonia.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupat...y_Nazi_Germany

    I was thinking here how to explain choices of Estonians during WW II with present time events. Where have people been between two hard stones at present time conficts? For example in Afganistan. Tribes have shifted their loyalities according to balance of power. First they joined with the help of sponsors against Soviets. First left the Soviets and then sponsors. In short time the empty room was filled with Taliban. Then happened 9/11 and reaction by USA. Tribes changed their loyalities again. We can call them all collaborators. Can we? Collaborators against what or who? Majority of people just want to live in peace (defeinition of peace and way of life is another topic). But when elephants start to run in shop you need to make a choice. How can we call Afgan officers who started their career in the middle of 70s, have studied in Frunze academy, fought with Soviets, worked with Taliban, now under Karzai and carring out joint operations with coalition?

  7. #127
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Default Estonia dismisses Russian charge it glorifies Nazism

    The Russian News and Information Agency RIAN reports on Russia's reaction to the recent gatherings in Estonia.

    TALLINN, July 30 (RIA Novosti) - Estonia's foreign minister dismissed Russian accusations earlier Monday that it glorifies Nazism.

    "Estonia, like the majority of countries, condemns Nazism," Urmas Paet said, adding Nazism was a criminal ideology and the notion should not used in modern politics, which Russia is doing.

    Russia's Foreign Ministry condemned a meeting of veterans of Estonia's Waffen SS division in the Baltic state over the weekend, calling it an outrageous event and regretting that it received official backing.

    "The open glorification of former Nazi fighters' actions in World War II by the Estonian government, voiced in a congratulatory speech to members of the Nazi coven by the defense minister, is especially outrageous," the ministry said.

    But Paet said Russia should focus on internal problems like "growing chauvinism."

  8. #128
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Default Ethnic Russian Activists to rally

    Also from this morning's RIAN

    TALLINN, July 31 (RIA Novosti) - Ethnic Russian activists will stage rallies Tuesday and Thursday in Estonia's capital calling for the release of two group members arrested in April for protesting against the removal of a Soviet war memorial.

    Leaders of the Night Watch movement, Dmitry Linter and Maxim Reva, were charged with organizing riots and face up to five years in jail.

    Another group leader, Dmitry Klensky, said activists would gather outside the Prosecutor General's office in the city center, and would also "collect signatures in support of political prisoners Linter and Reva, and hand the signatures to the Estonian and European authorities."

    The relocation on April 27 of the Bronze Soldier, a memorial to Soviet soldiers who died fighting in World War II, and the removal and reburial of soldiers' remains at the site, sparked a wave of angry protests both in Russia and Estonia, where ethnic Russians constitute about one third of the population.

    Moscow issued strong protests, with some parliamentarians calling for cutting diplomatic ties with Tallinn.

    The Russian leadership has repeatedly called the European Union's attention to Estonia's attempts to glorify Nazi Germany, and to its discriminatory policies relating to ethnic Russians whose families moved to the republic following its annexation by the Soviet Union at the beginning the war.

  9. #129
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    Stan said that RIAN said:

    TALLINN, July 31 (RIA Novosti) - Ethnic Russian activists will stage rallies Tuesday and Thursday in Estonia's capital calling for the release of two group members arrested in April for protesting against the removal of a Soviet war memorial.
    ... and there were 20 participants. The same number of participants was in their meeting month ago. I can say that there is kind of pattern.

    If there is someone who understands Russian, then here is fresh story by rebel form Nashi summer camp. According to him the 12 day camp for 10 000 participants cost 17 million EUR's. Very interesting talk is about so called organizations combatants that were used as provocators during opposition meetings in Russia and now are ready for elections. There are plans for election falsification etc. Very interesting reading.

    http://www.kommersant.ru/doc.aspx?DocsID=790656
    Last edited by kaur; 07-31-2007 at 12:35 PM.

  10. #130
    Council Member Dominique R. Poirier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaur View Post
    Here explains Wikipedia German occupation in Estonia.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupat...y_Nazi_Germany

    I was thinking here how to explain choices of Estonians during WW II with present time events. Where have people been between two hard stones at present time conficts? For example in Afganistan. Tribes have shifted their loyalities according to balance of power. First they joined with the help of sponsors against Soviets. First left the Soviets and then sponsors. In short time the empty room was filled with Taliban. Then happened 9/11 and reaction by USA. Tribes changed their loyalities again. We can call them all collaborators. Can we? Collaborators against what or who? Majority of people just want to live in peace (defeinition of peace and way of life is another topic). But when elephants start to run in shop you need to make a choice. How can we call Afgan officers who started their career in the middle of 70s, have studied in Frunze academy, fought with Soviets, worked with Taliban, now under Karzai and carring out joint operations with coalition?
    I have found the evolution of this thread interesting at some point and I would like to add something more to what Kaur said, which, I think, will add to the general enlightenment.

    “The Myth of the War Experience was kept alive and transmitted into the postwar world not by any sizeable group of the population, but by some Nazi youth and the SS (the elite Black Corps) and above all by those who had volunteered to fight in the Second World War. We must first concentrate upon these volunteers, or a group of people identical to those who had furthered the Myth of the War Experience in the first place, a century earlier, now attempted to come to its rescue. There was no rush to the colors in 1939; for one thing, all able-bodied men were immediately drafted. The volunteers arrived later with the Nazi’ conquest of Europe, and they came from all over Europe to fight in Hitler’s armies, though the term volunteer needs qualification. These volunteers were not as single minded in their enthusiasm as the earlier volunteers had been, and their reason for joining up were more complex. They enlisted not in a national but in European crusade, and they fought against bolshevism for the most part rather than seeking than seeking personal and rational regeneration. For all that, commitment to their individual nation did play a certain role in their enlistment, as we shall see, but so did commitment to some type of fascist ideology: most of the volunteers had been sympathetic to National Socialism before they enlisted. Under these circumstances the Myth of the War Experience continued to make its influence elt among them.

    From 1941 to 1944, altogether some 125,000 West Europeans and 200,000 East Europeans, Baltic peoples, and Russians volunteered in the Waffen SS—the military wing of the SS. They were grouped into various units, some of one nationality (the French Division Charlemagne), other of mixed nationality (the Division Viking, made up of Nordic nations). This was a European army, and however unreliable the reported figures of those who joined up, it was the biggest army of volunteers seen since the First World War. At first it had been small; by 1942 only some five thousand men had joined, but by 1943 the huge losses of the Waffen SS in Russia led to a more active policy of recruitment, and the number swelled. Thus, in 1943, 100,000 Ukrainians volunteered (of which a small percentage could be inducted), and even in France many joined in these last years of the war. Eventually volunteers came from thirty-seven nations. Hitler was always uneasy about this army of volunteers, since he never trusted members of former enemy nations. However, by 1943-1944 many of them had proven their fighting skills; indeed, it was in the last years of the war that these SS divisions distinguished themselves in the fierceness of their resistance to the Russian advance.

    The reasons why men volunteered was often bound up with the circumstances of their nations and their previous political and ideological affiliations. Collaborationist governments encouraged enlistments, while some in the rather large Baltic contingents (some eighty-thousand Letts, for example) fought for their state’s independence from the Soviets armies which had conquered them. There was also a feeling among many volunteers that fighting for Hitler would assure their nations an honorable place in the new order of Europe (Hmmm, I already heard very similar arguments, much later during the 90’s. Ed.). A high proportion of volunteers had been members of prewar Fascist parties or of collaboration parties when their nation was occupied. Thus 62 percent of the French volunteers of 1943 belonged to one or another of the Fascist political parties, and a considerable number of Dutch volunteers, perhaps as high as 40 percent of the total number, belonged to the NSB (National Socialistische Beweging). The strength of political commitments made before volunteering varied from nation to nation. It was relatively high in Holland and Belgium, and quite low in the Baltic states, where no significant Fascist parties existed before the war. Many of these volunteers were as highly politicized as those who had fought on the Loyalist side in Spain, in contrast with earlier volunteers—surely a symptom of the increase of politicization during the interwar years.

    Another sizeable group of volunteers had been members of conquered and now disbanded national armies. Political motives for enlistment were often indistinguishable from personal ones. The belief in national regeneration as a means of personal regeneration played its role, but tensions within the immediate family sometimes led to enlistment. Thus N.K.C.A. Int’Veld found that some Dutch volunteers joining the SS was an expression of revolt against a pro-English father. That the motivation of the SS volunteers were much more diverse that those of earlier volunteers in war was only to be expected given their lack of cohesion and the complex situations in which they found themselves.

    The usual motivations also played a role: love of adventure, status, glory, and gain. The last was probably not an important factor—more could be earned by staying at home and joining the police of militia—but toward the end of the war the rapidly worsening food shortages also drove men to volunteer. At least they would have enough food and shelter in the Waffen SS. Such material inducement had played hardly any role among the volunteers of 1914 or those in Spain, but in the midst of total war they were bound to have an effect. Collaborators had a concrete reason for volunteering in the last phase of the war, for service at the front seemed an escape from the personal danger they faced in their respective nations as Germany went down to almost certain defeat. Moreover, during the last years of the war there was much forced recruiting from occupied nations, and it becomes difficult to distinguish the volunteers from those whose enlistment was all but compulsory.

    The motivations for enlistment were important for the continuation of the myth. A pool of articulate and educated volunteers existed once again who, having joined, were ready to keep the myth alive. These were volunteers from Western countries—especially from France—for whom volunteering was an act of personal and national regeneration.”
    I found this excerpt on: George L. Moss, Fallen Soldiers. Reshaping the Memory of the World Wars, Oxford University Press, 1990, pp. 205-207.
    Last edited by Dominique R. Poirier; 08-01-2007 at 09:23 AM.

  11. #131
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    Dominique, thank you for this post. I suppose that this kind of story or point of view should be included in new history book. In May Economist wrote nice column about European history.

    The EU used to know where it stood on history—it was best kept simple, and in the past. In the early decades, history was about one big thing: the second world war, and the grand project of Franco-German reconciliation. From the outset, the EU was partly meant to make war unthinkable inside Europe. But over the years that miracle of continental forgiveness has ossified into something more inflexible, even smug. Just as pioneering Eurocrats toiled to create single European markets in widgets or wheat, their political masters crafted something approaching an approved single European history (challenged only in awkward-squad Britain, where the war was a matter of national pride). This history portrayed a smooth moral progression from nationalism and conflict (bad) to the sunny uplands of compromise, dialogue and border-free brotherhood (good).
    This is not to say that the newcomers inevitably have right on their side. Some nasty anti-Semites lurk within Polish politics. The Baltics mis-timed their push for recognition of Stalin's crimes: a directive about racism and xenophobia was the wrong vehicle. But that is no excuse for the impatient eye-rolling with which newcomers are often greeted when they air historical grievances. (During a discussion of Estonia's war-memorial row, the German ambassador to the EU observed cheerfully that Berlin was still home to Soviet war monuments, and even sculptures of Lenin, as if that was comparable.)
    http://www.economist.com/world/europ...TOKEN=63482802

  12. #132
    Council Member tequila's Avatar
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    We can call them all collaborators. Can we? Collaborators against what or who? Majority of people just want to live in peace (defeinition of peace and way of life is another topic). But when elephants start to run in shop you need to make a choice. How can we call Afgan officers who started their career in the middle of 70s, have studied in Frunze academy, fought with Soviets, worked with Taliban, now under Karzai and carring out joint operations with coalition?
    What do we call them? Inherently unreliable and almost certainly without moral compass. Also none of the above were nearly as bad as the SS.

    But that is no excuse for the impatient eye-rolling with which newcomers are often greeted when they air historical grievances.


    Please. There is a far cry from acquiescing passively to Nazi occupation, which the Estonians apparently had little problem doing, and volunteering to serve and fight alongside the occupiers who were also engaged in the mass murder of one's own fellow citizens. Recognizing the Baltics' historical grievances against Russia does not mean one has to clap when Estonian politicians salute proud SS volunteers.

  13. #133
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tequila View Post
    Please. There is a far cry from acquiescing passively to Nazi occupation, which the Estonians apparently had little problem doing, and volunteering to serve and fight alongside the occupiers who were also engaged in the mass murder of one's own fellow citizens. Recognizing the Baltics' historical grievances against Russia does not mean one has to clap when Estonian politicians salute proud SS volunteers.
    Hey Tequila !
    Sorry, been doing too many 12-hour shifts lately and intended to respond, but not before a little research.

    As you're aware, the Germans were here for 700+ years, and little sign of mass murders (save the Nazis against the Jews).

    What mass murders are you referring to ? Could you get me a link regarding that ? There's only 890,000 real Estonians here, so if we were to compare (as you recently did) to Rwanda, there would not be one single Estonian left.

    I can't find any passive objection to German occupation (I like the fancy word you dug up though) in the time I've been here, rather "going with" the lesser of the two evils.

    I thought I posted regarding "proud SS volunteers" and Sunday's gathers, or did I ? The government was not intentionally supporting nor condoning the event. Granted, it was not a smart decision given the recent events. But, it happens every year (number 15).

    Regards, Stan

  14. #134
    Council Member marct's Avatar
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    Hi Tequila,

    Quote Originally Posted by tequila View Post
    What do we call them? Inherently unreliable and almost certainly without moral compass. Also none of the above were nearly as bad as the SS.
    How about "alive"? The type of "moral compass" you are referring to is difficult to gauge. In most tribal societies, "morality" is defined by tribal survival and personal, family and clan honour. This type of shifting back and forth between external groups is quite normal and moral within that system of morality.

    I would also like to point out that the Waffen SS had the type of moral compass you are saying the Afghan officers don't (see the long quote tossed up by Dominique about the Crusade vs. Bolshevism). Furthermore, that particular, hmm, let's call it a "negative ideology" in the sense of saying we are against, rather than for, fitted in perfectly with the Baltic states who had been fighting the Russians for centuries. I will also point out that the choices, and rhetoric, given by both the Germans and the Soviets to the Estonians were no different than those the Americans gave to Canada when you invaded us in 1812.

    In the name of my Country and by the authority of my Government I promise you protection to your persons, property, and rights, Remain at your homes, Pursue your peaceful and customary avocations. Raise not your hands against your brethern, many of your fathers fought for the freedom & independence we now enjoy Being children therefore of the same family with us, and heirs to the same Heritage, the arrival of an army of Friends must be hailed by you with a cordial welcome, You will be emancipated from Tyranny and oppression and restored to the dignified station of freemen. Had I any doubt of eventual success I might ask your assistance but I do not. I come prepared for every contingency. I have a force which will look down all opposition and that force is but the vanguard of a much greater. If contrary to your own interest & the just expectation of my country, you should take part in the approaching contest, you will be considered and treated as enemies and the horrors, and calamities of war will Stalk before you.[emphasis added]

    Excerpt from General Hull’s Proclamation to Canada on July 13th 1812
    Quote Originally Posted by tequila View Post
    Please. There is a far cry from acquiescing passively to Nazi occupation, which the Estonians apparently had little problem doing, and volunteering to serve and fight alongside the occupiers who were also engaged in the mass murder of one's own fellow citizens. Recognizing the Baltics' historical grievances against Russia does not mean one has to clap when Estonian politicians salute proud SS volunteers.
    So, what would you suggest? Should they have joined with the Soviets who had occupied them, murdered their citizens and attempted to destroy Estonian culture, or withe the Germans who also murdered their citizens and occupied them, but weren't trying to annihilate their culture?

    It's a classic "between a rock and a hard place" situation that small countries have to deal with all the time and, like most such situations, it's compounded by thousands of years of bloodshed. We have been insanely lucky in North America. We have only fought two wars (obviously, I'm excluding your civil war), neither of which was particularly brutal, so we have managed to avoid the trap of a war every generation. This just isn't the case in most of the world.
    Sic Bisquitus Disintegrat...
    Marc W.D. Tyrrell, Ph.D.
    Institute of Interdisciplinary Studies,
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    The Canadian Centre for Intelligence and Security Studies, NPSIA
    Carleton University
    http://marctyrrell.com/

  15. #135
    Council Member tequila's Avatar
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    Hey Stan:

    As you're aware, the Germans were here for 700+ years, and little sign of mass murders (save the Nazis against the Jews).
    That's the mass murders I'm talking about.

    I can't find any passive objection to German occupation (I like the fancy word you dug up though) in the time I've been here, rather "going with" the lesser of the two evils.
    The Estonians did not resist the Germans as they did the Soviets. There were no "Forest Brothers" to fight the Nazis --- rather, those guerrillas chose to join the army that was liquidating their freedom and permanently annexing them to Germany.

    I thought I posted regarding "proud SS volunteers" and Sunday's gathers, or did I ? The government was not intentionally supporting nor condoning the event. Granted, it was not a smart decision given the recent events. But, it happens every year (number 15).
    From your own initial post:

    Estonian Defense Minister Jaak Aaviksoo greeted the participants in absentee and called upon them to defend the homeland from enemies both at home and abroad. The Minister also stated that Estonia needs them right now, referring to the recent riots triggered by relocating the Red Army's bronze statue from downtown Tallinn to a military cemetery.
    That certainly seems to imply government support for the event.

    How about "alive"? The type of "moral compass" you are referring to is difficult to gauge. In most tribal societies, "morality" is defined by tribal survival and personal, family and clan honour. This type of shifting back and forth between external groups is quite normal and moral within that system of morality.
    An Afghan officer who embraced first the Soviets, then Taliban, then the Karzai government seems to be systematically choosing precisely those elements most aligned against the old tribal system. Also, there are lots of fighters who are still alive who chose against at least two out of the three in each case.

    Furthermore, that particular, hmm, let's call it a "negative ideology" in the sense of saying we are against, rather than for, fitted in perfectly with the Baltic states who had been fighting the Russians for centuries. I will also point out that the choices, and rhetoric, given by both the Germans and the Soviets to the Estonians were no different than those the Americans gave to Canada when you invaded us in 1812.
    The Estonians could have chosen resistance to both, the most honorable path, or simple passive resistance through draft avoidance and refusal to volunteer for either's war effort.

    The Estonian government does not do itself well by honoring those who chose the Nazis.

  16. #136
    Council Member Dominique R. Poirier's Avatar
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    Default Choices are difficult, sometimes.

    I appologize for dragging France on the table once more but there exists a situation I find rather similar to this Estonians experienced during WWII, thought certainly less dramatic, of course. Let just say that since things seem to change a bit, in appearance at least, since the election of Nicolas Sarkozy which happened on last May the following applied until the end of Jacques Chirac’s mandate. That is:

    French people who are looking for a political party whose program is libertarian and inspired by the U.S. way of capitalism and individual freedom just can’t find one since there is no such a thing. All French political parties preach discreet defiance, when not overt hostility, toward the U.S. model, including those that claim to be on the rightist side. I must add to this that French are rather uneducated—not to say ignorant—about politics; to the point that they are just unable to provide a correct description of what is socialism, communist, capitalism, national socialism, or even fascism. The reason for this stems from a general unwillingness of the ruling elite to educate them about politics, and the main criteria available when the time to vote is coming are as subjective as: “who is the most trendy and the most attractive during public speeches;” the likelihood of promised tax cuts once elected, and the like.

    As a result, those who feel rightist join rightist parties and many of them joined the ranks of the Front National—whose program is truly national socialist—because it is officially ear-marked “far rightist” by all other parties that, at the same time, claim that the United States is a far rightist country.

    Confusion and mistakes ensue, of course.

    So, French people are in a situation nearly similar to this Estonian experienced during WWII. Either they join a leftist party or a national socialist one that claims to be anti-communist and anti-left in general (?). It tantamount to say that they have no choice but to stand by a political party, if ever they still want to join one, that will: be anti-American and anti-free capitalism and entrepreneurship; favor the welfare state; favor a heavy tax system whose role is to finance the welfares.

    Similarly, appearance suggest that Estonian who felt hostile to communism and the Soviet Union during WWII could hardly do more than either give up and submit willy-nilly to the ruling power of the moment (an attitude somewhat close to this of “passive resistance,” as Tequila suggests on his latest post) or stand by the Nazi (which was national socialist too, anyways). I hazard the guess that true passive resistance was a position quite hard to stand and intellectually accessible to a tiny courageous and well educated part of the Estonian population.
    Overall, I just surmise that Estonians were perhaps more politically conscious and educated during WWII than French are today since things were less subtle and confusing in those earlier times than they are nowadays.

    In any case, if we can pardon many Estonian who stood by the Nazi during WWII because there was no alternative available, it remains that those veterans of Estonia's Waffen SS division who still meet annually can hardly be excused the same way on the mere ground that Nazi don’t like Russia.

    Have I been that simplistic in my analysis?
    Last edited by Dominique R. Poirier; 08-01-2007 at 04:33 PM.

  17. #137
    Council Member tequila's Avatar
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    Similarly, appearance suggest that Estonian who felt hostile to communism and the Soviet Union during WWII could hardly do more than either give up and submit willy-nilly to the ruling power of the moment (an attitude somewhat close to this of “passive resistance,” ad Tequila suggests on his latest post) or stand by the Nazi (which was national socialist too, anyways).
    Passive resistance would entail things like hiding Jews rather than surrendering them, draft evasion, etc. Passive acquiescence, i.e. submission, appears to have been the attitude of most Estonians. Either one beats active collaboration and voluntarism. There was also the option of active resistance, of which there appears to be precious few Estonian examples, or flight to foreign countries, hopefully to continue the fight from there.

    I hazard the guess that true passive resistance was a position quite hard to stand and intellectually accessible to a tiny courageous and well educated part of the Estonian population. Overall, I just surmise that Estonians were perhaps more politically conscious and educated during WWII than French are today since things were less subtle and confusing in those earlier times than they are nowadays.
    The latter point you make sounds a bit odd to me. Please don't tell me that your evidence for Estonian political consciousness in the 1940s is the apparent willingness of Estonians to volunteer for the SS.

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    Council Member Tom Odom's Avatar
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    I have been reading this discussion but have heretofore stayed out of it. One reason is that I have often wondered what uniform I might have ended up wearing had I been living in Germany (or Estonia) at this time. That said, I have little sympathy or empathy for those who slaughtered innocents by the train load.

    I will offer this thought:

    To me the Estonian government is making a classically stupid move in identifying with the SS reunion groups in any way. Estonia generated enjoyed quite an out pouring of international support over Russian heavy handed responses concerning the statue. This risks reversing that support, leaving the Russians ina position to say, "we told you so." History in this game does not really matter; ask 100 Americans and maybe one will even know where Estonia is, much less know anything about Estonian-Soviet/Russian history. Tell them Estonia is a postage stamp being bullied by Russia, they will respond favorably for Estonia. Tell them the Estonian government gives homage to former SS (again SS versus Waffen SS distinctions are irrelevant here) associations, they will react with shock.

    Bottom line: in the world of international IO this is truly dumb.

    Tom

  19. #139
    Council Member Dominique R. Poirier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tequila View Post
    The latter point you make sounds a bit odd to me. Please don't tell me that your evidence for Estonian political consciousness in the 1940s is the apparent willingness of Estonians to volunteer for the SS.
    I’m quite ignorant about Estonia during WWII and its history overall, but I find this debate on the case of Estonia, as example, quite interesting nonetheless. So, I don’t have any evidence at hand beyond the matter brought upon on this thread and the works of George L. Moss I read.
    Since I know that political consciousness and education can vary to a great extent from one country to another I just suppose, surmise, believe, conjecture; and you are just enlightening me.

    Thanks Tequila.

  20. #140
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    Talking

    In summer 1940 the occupation of Estonia was carried through as a regular military operation. 160,000 men, supported by 600 tanks were concentrated for the invasion into Estonia. 5 divisions of the Soviet Air Force with 1150 aircraft blockaded the whole Baltic air space against Estonia, Lithuania and Latvia. The Soviet Baltic Fleet blockaded the operation from the sea. The Soviet NKVD was ordered to be ready for the reception of 58,000 prisoners of war
    During the first year of Soviet occupation (1940-1941) over 8,000 people, including most of the country's leading politicians and military officers, were arrested. About 2,200 of the arrested were executed in Estonia, while most others were moved to prison camps in Russia, from where very few were later able to return alive.
    On June 14, 1941, when mass deportations took place simultaneously in all three Baltic countries, about 10,000 Estonian civilians were deported to Siberia and other remote areas of the Soviet Union, where nearly half of them later perished. Of the 32,100 Estonian men who were forcibly relocated to Russia under the pretext of mobilisation into the Red Army after the German invasion of the Soviet Union in 1941, nearly 40 percent died within the next year in the "labour battalions" through hunger, cold and overworking.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonia...gime_of_terror

    Many Estonians were recruited in to the German armed forces (including Waffen-SS), the majority did so only in 1944 when the threat of a new invasion of Estonia by the Red Army had become imminent and it was clear that Germany would not win the war
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonia...and_Annexation

    Instead of conclusion.

    WW II losses in Estonia, estimated at around 25%, were among the highest in Europe. War and occupation deaths have been estimated at 90,000. These include the Soviet deportations in 1941, the German deportations and Holocaust victims
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonia...gime_of_terror

    In 1949 in response to slow progress in forming collective farms, about 20,000 people were forcibly deported in a few days either to labor camps or Siberia (see Gulag).[28] Within the few weeks that followed, almost all of the remaining rural households had been subjected to collectivisation (ibid).
    Half of the deported perished [29]; the other half were not allowed to return until the early 1960s (several years after Stalin's death).
    Russification was another effect brought about by the Soviet occupation. Hundreds of thousands of Russian-speaking migrants (mostly from the Russian Federation or Ukraine) were relocated to Estonia by the Soviet administration and Communist Party to conduct industrialization and militarization, contributing an increase of about half million to Estonia's population within 45 years of occupation and colonisation.[31] The immigrants stayed on to form part of the population. By 1980, when part of the Moscow Olympic Games were also held in Tallinn (the Olympic Regatta), Russification and state-orchestrated immigration had achieved a level at which it started sparking popular protests.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republi...#Soviet_return

    Tequila, all I can ask is little empaty.
    Last edited by kaur; 08-01-2007 at 06:45 PM.

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