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Thread: General Petraeus: collection

  1. #241
    Council Member Fuchs's Avatar
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    Whatever officials did against Petraeus is hardly the gist of the story in my opinion.

    What's happened is that his rise was tolerated, but considered questionable, by many. He's a public relations genius officer like MacArthur or Rommel, and success-wise rather in MacArthur's league than in Rommel's (who was still a poor strategist, poor logistician and an utter failure as a political person).


    Petraeus is falling deep and hard not because he rose so high, but because nobody appears to slow his descent; instead, they appear to accelerate it by distancing themselves from him.
    This happens usually to people who rose high with more style than substance. Germany experienced recently how this happened to a federal minister after a quick political rise with lots of good (if not devotional) press.


    I therefore second gute's hint about how there are no or few true heroes who deserve as much praise as they get.
    Last edited by Fuchs; 11-13-2012 at 08:06 AM.

  2. #242
    Council Member Dayuhan's Avatar
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    I see no need to assume a conspiracy: sometimes people do stupid stuff and sometimes it blows up in their faces. Benghazi was dropping off the headlines and the public radar on its own well before this started; the populace has a short attention span and the media know it.

    The story does reveal a few oddities, though... what on earth is an "unpaid social liason", and why does a military base need one?
    “The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary”

    H.L. Mencken

  3. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuchs View Post
    Whatever officials did against Petraeus is hardly the gist of the story in my opinion.

    What's happened is that his rise was tolerated, but considered questionable, by many. He's a public relations genius officer like MacArthur or Rommel, and success-wise rather in MacArthur's league than in Rommel's (who was still a poor strategist, poor logistician and an utter failure as a political person).


    Petraeus is falling deep and hard not because he rose so high, but because nobody appears to slow his descent; instead, they appear to accelerate it by distancing themselves from him.
    This happens usually to people who rose high with more style than substance. Germany experienced recently how this happened to a federal minister after a quick political rise with lots of good (if not devotional) press.


    I therefore second gute's hint about how there are no or few true heroes who deserve as much praise as they get.
    The guy who runs Sic Semper Tyrannis and his readers can contribute some details:

    http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_s....html#comments

  4. #244
    Council Member Fuchs's Avatar
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    At least I have evidence that I didn't fall for his PR:

    (Forget about Rommel; he was more a talented self-promoter like MacArthur and Petraeus than a military genius.)
    (Too bad; Wayback Machine had not archived it so in theory I might have edited this text. Well, at least google cache has a Nov 4 version, so yes, I did not edit it. )
    Last edited by Fuchs; 11-13-2012 at 03:25 PM.

  5. #245
    Council Member tequila's Avatar
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    Good to see that the crazed conspiracy-theorizing has even reached SWJ. Awesome.

    So many have idolized Petraeus for so long that the idea that he just might have screwed up badly and gotten caught out simply does not compute. No, he must be the victim somehow in all this! He is not the one who wrecked his family and reputation - the evil President and his dastardly political machine must have done it, no doubt to escape yet more evidence of their treasonous activities in selling out America.

  6. #246
    Council Member Fuchs's Avatar
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    Tequila, come on; every time you read anything remotely political in the internet written by Americans you gotta be prepared to see that attitude. This right wing stuff can be considered to be persistent anglophone internet background noise by now.
    _______________________

    Related to Petraeus downfall:

    How I Was Drawn Into the Cult of David Petraeus
    By Spencer Ackerman

    Like many in the press, nearly every national politician, and lots of members of Petraeus’ brain trust over the years, I played a role in the creation of the legend around David Petraeus. Yes, Paula Broadwell wrote the ultimate Petraeus hagiography, the now-unfortunately titled All In. But she was hardly alone (except maybe for the sleeping-with-Petraeus part). The biggest irony surrounding Petraeus’ unexpected downfall is that he became a casualty of the very publicity machine he cultivated to portray him as superhuman.

    As I think I mentioned before, this fall is not only determined by the height to which he rose, but also by the way how he did it and why.
    It's the kind of downfall reserved for "more style than substance" idols.

    Compare http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl-Theodor_zu_Guttenberg

  7. #247
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default Because that Military has totally lost its way...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dayuhan View Post
    The story does reveal a few oddities, though... what on earth is an "unpaid social liason", and why does a military base need one?
    Excellent question, scary answer...

    Tequila:

    I'm not a Petraeus fan or a conspiracy theorist nor a am I a right wing ldeologue. In fact, I believe ideologues on both sides are slightly deranged and Hanlon's razor rules.

    Fuchs is right, Petraeus was a self seeker. You're also right; he screwed up (no pun intended). However, while I certainly do not believe that Petraeus is a victim or was set up, I'm cognizant of the fact that a lot of folks in DC play strange games and are quite adept at this: LINK.

    As Slapout said, Qui Bono...

    A potential threat to one party in 2016 is removed or at least neutered a bit, an outsider is removed from a position of power -- anyone at his level is fair game for many reasons to include nothing more complex than personal jealousy or an over zealous media and our system will pounce on any screw up. That isn't conspiracy theorizing, that's just reality. It's also a feature, not a bug. It helps to keep the system a little honest. Deserved falls from grace are not a bad thing...

  8. #248

  9. #249
    Council Member ganulv's Avatar
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    Default Is the head of DHS savvier than the head of the CIA?

    I say yes.
    If you don’t read the newspaper, you are uninformed; if you do read the newspaper, you are misinformed. – Mark Twain (attributed)

  10. #250
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    As far as Broadwell and Petraeus, two Massengales dont seem to make a Damon.

  11. #251
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    Default And, the tangled web ...

    gets more tangled.

    Chi Trib, FBI probe into Petreaus sex scandal expands to top U.S. commander in Afghanistan:

    Tribune wire reports
    AP
    1:33 p.m. CST, November 13, 2012

    The sex scandal that led to CIA Director David Petraeus' downfall widened Tuesday with word the top U.S. commander in Afghanistan is under investigation for alleged "inappropriate communications" with another woman involved in the case. Some of the material was "flirtatious," an official said.

    Even as the FBI prepared a timeline for Congress about the investigation that brought to light Petraeus' extramarital affair with his biographer, Paula Broadwell, Defense Secretary Leon Panetta revealed that the Pentagon had begun an internal investigation into emails between Gen. John Allen and a Florida woman involved in the case.

    Some of the 20,000-plus pages of documents and emails between Allen and Tampa socialite Jill Kelley were "flirtatious," according to a senior defense official who spoke on condition of anonymity because he wasn't authorized to discuss the case publicly. It wasn't immediately clear who wrote the flirtatious notes — Allen, Kelley or both. ... (more in story)
    USA Today, Scandal that brought down Petraeus widens:

    2:32PM EST November 13. 2012 -

    WASHINGTON -- The tangled web of the David Petraeus sex scandal expanded Tuesday to include a top U.S. commander in Afghanistan who is under investigation for exchanging thousands of possibly "inappropriate" emails and other documents with a woman who received harassing e-mails from Petraeus' former lover.

    Defense Secretary Leon Panetta said he asked the Pentagon's Inspector General on Monday to look into 20,000 to 30,000 pages of e-mails and documents from Gen. John Allen to Jill Kelley. He said the FBI referred the matter to the Pentagon on Sunday.

    A senior defense official told USA TODAY that Allen's communications were with Kelley, who has been described as an unpaid social liaison at MacDill Air Force Base, Fla.,which is headquarters to the U.S. Central Command. She is not a U.S. government employee. ... (more in story).
    A Canadian Caveat (to go with "two Massengales don't seem to make a Damon"):

    There once was a man named MacKeever,
    who had intercourse with a beaver:
    The result of the f**k was a canvasback duck,
    two canoes and a golden retriever.

    Regards

    Mike

  12. #252
    Council Member gute's Avatar
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    And this headline:

    Petraeus-Broadwell Probe Spreads to Gen. Allen

    http://www.military.com/daily-news/2...ESRC=marine.nl

  13. #253
    Council Member Dayuhan's Avatar
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    Default Stranger and Stranger

    I'm not particularly offended by people being flirtatious; if that was a crime we'd need a lot of prison space. It is a bit mind-boggling, though, that a General managed to send over 20,000 pages of e-mail to an "unpaid social liason". 20,000+ pages is a lot of e-mail, you wonder how the guy sending it had time to do anything else.
    “The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary”

    H.L. Mencken

  14. #254
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    The fact that an unofficial "unpaid social liaison" even exists is almost as bad as the affair. Placement and access with no reason to be there in the first place.

  15. #255
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    20,000 pages doesn't necessarily translate into 20,000 emails. Depending on where and how the documents were obtained, a simple blackberry text message saying "what up!" could be buried under 10+ pages of header information by the internet/wireless service provider.

    [Edited to add this] Better yet... Link

    Allen and Kelley, who threw parties and other social events involving senior leaders at the Central Command, did exchange “a few hundred e-mails over a couple of years,” beginning when Allen was the deputy commander at the Central Command, this senior official said. But “most of them were about routine stuff.”
    The senior official also emphasized that the volume of communications between the two “was nowhere near” 20,000 to 30,000 personal messages. The official said the high page count reported by the FBI may have been the result of printing numerous individual messages that contained lengthy threads of earlier exchanges.
    Last edited by JarodParker; 11-14-2012 at 06:29 AM. Reason: added quote

  16. #256
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    Default How come....

    ....when it's stuff like this, the media chases down every single lead and is insatiable in its curiosity but when it comes to the following:

    Was there a foreign government behind the 9/11 attacks? A decade later, Americans still haven’t been given the whole story, while a key 28-page section of Congress’s Joint Inquiry report remains censored.
    it is like cricket's chirping except for a few stalwarts?

    http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/f...11-2011-201108

    I am not making a partisan point or falling into conspiracy-mongering or anything of the sort. The very nature of the national security apparatus (think tanks, appointees civilian and military, academics of PhD or whatever variety, journalists, hangers-on, bloggers, tweeters) fascinates and appalls, confuses and disappoints.

    11 years and basic questions unanswered, stories about celebrity instead of hard intellectual work and question asking, and even those that saw through the celebrity generals are just as clueless about influence agents that aren't a part of the American scene.

    None of which excuses the behavior which is reckless and harmful.


    Ugh. What a colossal waste of my time all this reading milblogs etc. has been. I know it's not true entirely but it feels like it.

  17. #257
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    Default But, it sure will be interesting ...

    ABC News: Petraeus Affair: Who Is Jill Kelley?

    A 3-page start on the Khawam sisters, Jill and Natalie.

    Regards

    Mike

  18. #258
    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
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    Default What do the French make of Petraeus?

    A comment from Australia, so slightly tongue in cheek, but points out different standards over time and space.

    The bonus is:
    Illustrating a more enlightened approach to such matters, I leave you with this Churchill story..
    Link:http://www.lowyinterpreter.org/post/...-Petraeus.aspx
    davidbfpo

  19. #259
    Council Member Fuchs's Avatar
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    This stuff is becoming entertaining.

    I saw graphical presentations of the scandal, with all the social interactions known. The funny thing:

    They are growing. A lot.

  20. #260
    Council Member bourbon's Avatar
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    Default Do you put the word "the" in front of "God"?

    http://www.theamericanconservative.com/a-cia-coup/

    Fwiw, this is the Petraeus theory that I find most plausible. Factions within the CIA establishment wanted him gone. They see CIA as having lost its way, and Petraeus' directorship as the continued militarization of CIA.
    “[S]omething in his tone now reminded her of his explanations of asymmetric warfare, a topic in which he had a keen and abiding interest. She remembered him telling her how terrorism was almost exclusively about branding, but only slightly less so about the psychology of lotteries…” - Zero History, William Gibson

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