Foreign fighters in Iraq & Syria

[Bob's World]

Anyone who voluteers to go fight in someone else's war for anything other than significant money is an "extremist." After all, what could be more extreme behavior?

But to assume these people are radicalized, or proponents for some extreme perspective on Islam is an assumption without basis in logic or fact. Most probably believe in the principle of self-determination; and where legal democracy is either illegal or ineffective, then only "illegal democracy" remains. Insurgency only differs from democracy by legality. This is civil disobedience taken to the extremes because taking it to the extremes is the only viable option for change.

One need not agree, but one should respect those who answer that call. Even if one's mission is to stop them from succeeding.

[carl]

Anyone who voluteers to go fight in someone else's war for anything other than significant money is an "extremist." After all, what could be more extreme behavior?

But to assume these people are radicalized, or proponents for some extreme perspective on Islam is an assumption without basis in logic or fact. Most probably believe in the principle of self-determination; and where legal democracy is either illegal or ineffective, then only "illegal democracy" remains. Insurgency only differs from democracy by legality. This is civil disobedience taken to the extremes because taking it to the extremes is the only viable option for change.

One need not agree, but one should respect those who answer that call. Even if one's mission is to stop them from succeeding.

That"s nonsense. The foreigners who volunteer to fight for ISIS are fighting for the imposition of a radical Islamist state and they plainly state that. They do not "probably believe in the principle of self-determination", they certainly do believe in the imposition of Jihadist police state.

Geesh, talking about putting lipstick on a pig.

[Bob's World]

Carl, actually it is you espousing ideological nonsense. I tolerate your binded shots in my general direction, and I realize many are equally as ideolgogically blinded as yourself and agree in large part with your baseless positions. That does not make those positions correct.

In many ways you are a microcosm of post Cold War US national security strategy, becoming increasingly ideological ourselves to the point where we perceive ourselves to be existentially threatened merely because some other ideolog believes differently.

Personally I am cautious of all ideologs, regardless of their espoused creed. I prefer those who think, seek to understand, and then speak or act; over those who memorize, recite and perform.

These are political struggles. When one loses sight of that reality and over-focuses on "the lipstick" (to borrow your phrase) one forgets its all about the pig. And that pig is politics; and the political competition is driven by fundamental human nature, not fundamentalist ideology. Those denied legal redress will take illegal redress. It is what humans have always done and will always do.

[carl]

Bob Jones:

I am pleased to have conferred upon me the status of microcosm. I will do my best to bring honor upon this position and will strive to leave it in a better state than I found it.

Now, back to business.

You made a blanket statement about the motives of foreign fighters in Syria and you speculated that "Most probably believe in the principle of self-determination...". That is patently untrue in the case of foreign volunteers for the ISIS. They do not in any way believe in the the principle of self-determination. They are fighting for something so far removed from that that to state that "Most probably believe in the principle of self-determination" is...nonsense.

Obviously these are political struggles. And one of the political goals some of the contestants are fighting for is the establishment of a Jihadist police state. That is what the takfiri killers are fighting for. Because it is based on twisted theological principles does not make it any less a political position. Not to recognize that is, in my microcosmic view, being blind to something the takfiri killers are very forthright about.

[davidbfpo]

Part of the problem today is looking at the 'foreign fighters' (FF) issue through Syrian "lens" and not considering the history.

Bob's World stated:

Anyone who volunteers to go fight in someone else's war for anything other than significant money is an "extremist." After all, what could be more extreme behavior?

History has plenty of examples of FF participating in the "good fight" and allowing for the cause to be truly foreign. So I have excluded the French aid to your War of Independence and that rendered to Texas against Mexican rule.

How about the pilots who came to aid Great Britain in WW2 (WW1 too IIRC) and the unofficial mission to China, Chenault's Tigers?

[Firn]

As written before there are good reasons why one should be careful to keep the legal and the intelligence issue distinct:

1) It would be criminal not to monitor their activities closely because their decision and their stay proves that they are much more likely to use violence to achieve their political goals compared to a control group. That does of course require ressources but likely a lot less then reaction 2.

2) Creating now harsh laws to throw them quickly into prison for a considerable amount of time is not only problematic from a legal point I guess but requires a lot of ressources for a long time.

Generally I'm not surprised that the British gov has used an additionally path in many cases, stripping holders of two passports of their British one. Once again it seems to me that this raises legal questions but can be a 'cheap' solution for the respective group.

[davidbfpo]

Not a development that anyone anticipated. A short US article:http://www.buzzfeed.com/mikegiglio/s...ere-do-they-go

Facing a sudden backlash in Syria, some foreign fighters are now doing just that — dropping their weapons and fleeing the war — according to rebels, activists and analysts tracking the conflict.

[Tukhachevskii]

Carl, actually it is you espousing ideological nonsense. I tolerate your binded shots in my general direction, and I realize many are equally as ideolgogically blinded as yourself and agree in large part with your baseless positions. That does not make those positions correct.

In many ways you are a microcosm of post Cold War US national security strategy, becoming increasingly ideological ourselves to the point where we perceive ourselves to be existentially threatened merely because some other ideolog believes differently.

Personally I am cautious of all ideologs, regardless of their espoused creed. I prefer those who think, seek to understand, and then speak or act; over those who memorize, recite and perform.

These are political struggles. When one loses sight of that reality and over-focuses on "the lipstick" (to borrow your phrase) one forgets its all about the pig. And that pig is politics; and the political competition is driven by fundamental human nature, not fundamentalist ideology. Those denied legal redress will take illegal redress. It is what humans have always done and will always do.

...to this nonsense. Political preferences are non ideiological? Ever hear of the spanish civil war? So politics is purely proceducral? I take it these people travel abroad to risk their lives for such administrative or procedural political goals as wether or not the central government should pick up household rubiish on Tuesday instead of Wednesday? Its crap like this that simply turned me off SWC. Bobs worls and I have debated before. Right now I just can't be bothered. Politics is not ideological?!! Thank god this site doesnt require a subscription.

[davidbfpo]

ICSR @ Kings has published this research paper today:

An analysis of social media has shown what a selection of foreign fighters in Syria are liking, following and interacting with. What are their key online influences?....The analysis identifies two relatively unknown clerics who have been acting as online cheerleaders for fighters seeking to topple President Bashar al-Assad. It also identifies a new breed of 'disseminators' advising and supporting the men and women who have joined rebel groups. Two preachers, Ahmad Musa Jibril (US-based) and Musa Cerantonio (based in Australia)

From a short article:http://www.theguardian.com/news/data...ighters-syria?


An eight minute video:http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/v...al-media-video


The report via:http://icsr.info/2014/04/icsr-insigh...eign-fighters/

[davidbfpo]

A short paper by the London-based Institute for Strategic Dialogue 'Foreign Fighters, the Challenge of Counter-Narratives', after the introduction a refreshing attempt to consider and provide a counter-narrative. Sadly it has taken three years, with speculation / reporting that hundreds are fighting in Syria and an estimated two hundred and fifty have returned to the UK.

Link:http://www.strategicdialogue.org/For...bsite_v0.6.pdf

[Firn]

Brussels Jewish Museum killings: Suspect 'admitted attack'

He said Mr Nemmouche had spent over a year in Syria and had links with radical Islamists.

....

Police found Mr Nemmouche had in his possession a Kalashnikov rifle and a handgun believed to have been used in the attack, the Paris prosecutor told a news conference on Sunday.

With the weapons was a white sheet emblazoned with the name of the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, a jihadist group fighting in Syria, according to Mr Molins.

He was also sentenced to 5 years for armed robbery, it seems, before going to Syria. Arguably a second marker beside the Syria trip which caused monitoring activities. Similar connections (minus the terrorism at home, so far) have been already mentioned in this thread. This nexus and his criminal past might have facilitated the access to those guns, we will see. There will be lots of question in France, especially within the services.

Mr Nemmouche was also said to be carrying a camera with a 40-second video showing the two guns and a voice recording, claiming responsibility for the killings and expressing regret that the device had not succeeded in capturing the shooting.

Maybe influenced by the Syrian YTwar, in which such cameras are widely used for various reasons, propaganda being not the least among them.