298,144,215 Decide to Not Protest War in D.C. This Weekend

[Culpeper]

I agree with a lot of Culpepper's post, but I have to concur with you there, Lastdingo. Only after looking it up to make sure I knew what nihilism really was.

Rather than saying that neither anti- or pro-war are preferable or true, I took Lastdingo to be saying almost the opposite in that the lack of a pro-war demonstration validated the anti-war demonstration and gave it more virtue. Not to me, it doesn't.

After a little reflection, I will add a clarificaiton that was underlying my prior post but not stated clearly. There is a HUGE gap in my mind between the popular anti-war demonstrations and the significant and substantial anti-war arguments. I find the bulk of the former in practice to be naively idealistic (downplaying ?). There is a world of difference between anti-all-war moaning, and pragmatic anti-this-war or -that-war-this-way-and-because-of-this reasoning. Unfortunately, the latter are too often confounded with politics, naysaying, and obstructionism to be as compelling as they often should be.

I was referring to the philosophy of nihilism, which is an extreme form of skepticism. It is denial of existence or objective truth. I wasn't referring to nihilism as most folks think of it, which would be anarchy or rejection of the establishment.

[SWCAdmin]

Exactly, and you won't see a connection and I didn't mean for you to see a connection. If you had seen a connection than I would have been absolutely incorrect in my assumption. A nihilistic remark has no connection. Existence is senseless and useless. How can there be fabricating reports of anti-war protests when there are no fabricated as well as non fabricated pro-war protests to compare them to? Or did you post, "...." by mistake? I was merely pontificating after SWJED's post, which I thought was to the point. A one sentence off-handed remark on these forums is the equivalent of pinning a paper square to your chest. Trust me. I know.

This is like reading a LeCarre novel, watching an episode of 24, and doing a Rubix cube while solving long division problems in your head. I'm having a tough time following this, and English is my first language. Time for bed!

Good luck following up on this one, Lastdingo.

Well said, Bill Moore, happy 4th of July to all, with appropriate clicks of calendar windage for our members from other countries to adjust to your sensibilities.

[Culpeper]

This is like reading a LeCarre novel, watching an episode of 24, and doing a Rubix cube while solving long division problems in your head.

Yeah, that's right!

Lieutenant Scheisskopf longed desperately to win parades and sat up half the night working on it while his wife waited amorously for him in bed thumbing through Krafft-Ebing to her favorite passages. He read books on marching. He manipulated boxes of chocolate until they melted in his hands and then maneuvered in ranks of twelve a set of plastic cowboys he had bought from a mail-order house under an assumed name and kept locked away from everyone's eyes during the day. Leonardo's exercises in anatomy proved indispensable. One evening he felt the need for a live model and directed his wife to march around the room.

"Naked?" she asked hopefully.

Lieutenant Scheisskopf smacked his hands over his eyes in exasperation. It was the despair of Lieutenant Scheisskopf's life to be chained to a woman who was incapable of looking beyond her own dirty, sexual desires to the titanic struggles for the unattainable in which noble man could become heroically engaged.

[Lastdingo]

Rather than saying that neither anti- or pro-war are preferable or true, I took Lastdingo to be saying almost the opposite in that the lack of a pro-war demonstration validated the anti-war demonstration and gave it more virtue. Not to me, it doesn't.

There's a special German custom that you are most likely not aware of.
It's about demonstrations and counter-demonstrations.

Whenever the extreme right wing (let's call them neonazis) organize a demonstration, they have to announce it tot he police in advance (traffic regulation and so on).
The result is that the left wing mobilizes for a counter-demonstration with several times as much individuals.
This phenomenom is widely considered to be a useful proof for what's reality in Germany - the extreme right wing is a minority. The democratic instrument of demonstration is being used to demonstrate the fact.

That's why I consider the size of opposing demonstrations as something that can provide useful information on the attitude of the majority.

It's possible to downplay some demonstration as it never includes a majority or even large minority of the people. But to dismiss it that easily is not fair, as the opposing political direction is often unable to mobilize their followers for any respectable demonstration at all.

Furthermore, it dismisses a democratic expression of will - and such an attack on democratic dispositions (I don't mean the party here) is something that makes me react.


About the nihilism thing: I'm best-informed about my disposition - there's nothing nihilistic, so my post cannot have been nihilistic as well. I as author am the only expert on this matter and have the right to tell which interpretation is correct and which is not - file closed.

[Culpeper]

About the nihilism thing: I'm best-informed about my disposition - there's nothing nihilistic, so my post cannot have been nihilistic as well. I as author am the only expert on this matter and have the right to tell which interpretation is correct and which is not - file closed.

That was exactly what I was stating. That is nihilism. You are the only one that can be right. Nothing else exists. You stated it yourself. You're not even open to suggestion. Not a problem.

[Lastdingo]

That was exactly what I was stating. That is nihilism. You are the only one that can be right. Nothing else exists. You stated it yourself. You're not even open to suggestion. Not a problem.

That applies to you, as you claim to know better what someone else thought and what motivated him than he himself knows. I was just reporting about what I know with certainty and what noone else can know at all because both the fact as well as the knowledge about the fact is originates in my brain. It's not nihilism to know what I think while noone else can read my mind. That's life.

[AFlynn]

Watch out Culpeper, you seem to be veering dangerously close to the much derided "Postmodern obscurantism."

I think most students are apathetic mixed with depressed when they think about the big picture. We're pretty sure we're the first generation of Americans that's going to be worse off than the last. It just makes more sense to keep your head down and concentrate on getting yours.

[Culpeper]

Watch out Culpeper, you seem to be veering dangerously close to the much derided "Postmodern obscurantism."

I think most students are apathetic mixed with depressed when they think about the big picture. We're pretty sure we're the first generation of Americans that's going to be worse off than the last. It just makes more sense to keep your head down and concentrate on getting yours.

Yes, I am veering in that direction and postmodern obscurantism is where facts are irrelevant and discouraged. It is just a fancy modern terminology for the nihilist philosophy that has been around a long time. It's an hallucinatory perspective that is common in academia as well as the press, which is related to the topic of the thread. It is also used as propaganda by Islamic extremists. It is a tool to prevent the existence of an argument. It is a doctrine of denying absolute and objective truths. Especially, moral truths. Germany is a fine example. It was perfectly legal for Islamic extremists to plot attacks against other sovereign nations while living in Germany. Even if those involved were planning attacks against allies of Germany. It was only unlawful to plan attacks against Germany herself. Much of the planning for the 911 attacks were carried out in Germany. Why? Because their view of a democracy is a hallucinatory nihilistic dogma. The concept of right and wrong are barriers in finding one's true self. It results in such things as Rachel Corey traveling around the world to get smashed by a bulldozer over something she could care less about in terms of right and wrong based on facts. Look, I'm not trying to be Aristotle. But this is the basis of the anti-war movement in America. The movement in America uses the model used in Europe and it doesn't fit. That is why it hasn't been very effective. Public opinions based on polls is not a movement. It is merely an opinion barometer based on a very small sample of the population usually between 1,000 to 1,500 people. Most people don't even bother to study the internals of a poll even if the link is embedded or posted elsewhere on an Internet article. Polls aren't taking it to the streets. As for the original sentence that got me started on this topic

Downplaying peace demonstrrations is interesting ... but somewhat not so substantial as long as you cannot point at some pro-war demonstrations of larger size.

It was the "..." that caught my eye. This is where the poster would have discussed such things such as facts and truths to support the entire statement. As you can see. There is nothing there. How convenient?

[Lastdingo]

It was the "..." that caught my eye. This is where the poster would have discussed such things such as facts and truths to support the entire statement. As you can see. There is nothing there. How convenient?

Actually, I just posted the "..." because I would have had there a spacing of a second if I had spoken the text.

Posts in forums are no essays and need no elaboration such like full list of arguments. The core stuff was mentioned, that's what counts.

I was completely unaware that someone would analyze those three dots under philosophical aspects and start a page-long discussion on that.

[SWCAdmin]

Interesting point a few posts back from Lastdingo about the German SOP. I hadn't though of it that way. I don't think it translates well, but interesting nonetheless. I'd think that could really be artfully manipulated and become very misleading. Is it used as a barometer by the press, politicians, etc., where size matters?

Edited to add: have deleted a petty exchange prior to this post, and its related "knock it off" comments. Let's continue on a higher road.

[Tacitus]

Back to the original idea. I don't buy the idea that because there aren't 298,144,215 walking around in the streets for any stated reason can be stated as passive consent for any government policy.

For example, there is alot of opposition to the administration's trying to ram that immigration bill through Congress, with its allies. Somebody could write some article saying "298,144,215 fail to hold demonstrations opposing the President's immigration bill." Would that mean that really there is a silent majority backing the bill, merely because there is an absense of folks with jobs and something better to do that meander around on a public road chanting something? I think not.

The way I read the situation, opponents of the war do not think that holding some kind of anti-Iraq war demonstration would really change anything. Does anyone seriously think walking around on a public road waving some sign will seriously alter the behavior of the Administration, either on the Iraq war, immigration, or whatever? Of course not! People who disagree with the Iraq war have focused their efforts, instead, on working to nominate a candidate for President who shares their views on the issue. They see that as a more constructive strategy.

If you don't believe in the Iraq war, you are free to opt out of fighting it, since there is no draft. Start a draft, and I suspect we'd start seeing some genuine civil disobedience.

I have serious doubts about this democracy project in Mesopotamia we've taken on. I just don't think it is going to work, mainly because I don't see how the current government in Baghdad can get the support of the people. Isn't the power behind Mailik's coalition Al Sadr's party? I just don't see how this government is going to establish itself over that country, surge or no surge. Call it pragmatic skepticism. But I don't trace that to any conscious nihilistic philosophical impulses on my part. I do have a couple of books by Nietzsche on my bookshelf in my study. They are interesting books, but that is about it. Who's walking around thinking to themself, "What would Nietzsche think about Iraq? Whatever that is, that's what I think."

[goesh]

There may be some credence given to the notion that the lack of protestors signifies at least some larger tacit endorsement of our involvment in Iaq if you look at it from the perspective of music. There are a number of Country/Western singers who have patriotic and supportive songs out that have sold well and been widely heard in contrast to the significant lack of such music coming from the Left and anti-war camp. For the crew that likes to keep drawing Viet Nam analogies, this is the antithesis of that time in our history when the anti-war verse and tunes by far loudly out thundered the pro-war songs. They ain't singing the counter message today although we have artists with high school degrees who are speaking out as foreign policy and military experts against the Iraq war. This says much in contrast to the likes of Toby Keith, Alan Jackson and others who ain't just whistling Dixie when they go to the bank with their large earnings. We sometimes want to exempt ourselves from our own heritage and history and to me that is a symptom of nihilism we are all guilty of. Dissent and disagreement over Iraq is extraordinarily mild compared to our past wars and issues. I learned from a tv special on our Revolutionary War that in S. Carolina alone, there were 103 firefights between Tory Loyalists and Colonial Patriots. We 're talking men down bleeding and dead here, homes burned, cattle run off, crops burned, women raped, homes looted - not just a few muskets fired in anger. Granted, extraneous issues of land disputes and revenge figured in prominently back then but so too today do all kinds of extraneous things get attached to the anti-war movement. There is an ill defined sense of evil in Iraq that our people are reacting to by not voicing strong opposition to the war. That to me is the tacit endorsement with considerable disagreement on how best to deal with it. I think the average American who sees and hears about mosque and market bombings with large numbers of dead and reads about beheadings and holes drilled in people's heads doesn't want our men and women walking away from that as if nothing can be done about it or somehow such an enemy can't be beaten or at least harshly punished. Such sentiments are in fact reflected in music and in the lack of music.

[VinceC]

There's a special German custom that you are most likely not aware of.
It's about demonstrations and counter-demonstrations.

Whenever the extreme right wing (let's call them neonazis) organize a demonstration, they have to announce it tot he police in advance (traffic regulation and so on).
The result is that the left wing mobilizes for a counter-demonstration

That's an interesting observation. A few months after the opening of the Berlin Wall, I visited -- as a news reporter -- a neo-Nazi rally in what was still East Germany.

At one point, a crowd of tough-looking leather-clad men and women surrounded a young, clean-cut woman in a college sweatshirt. When I moved in close to see what was happening, I understood that the young lady was demanding her rights to voice pro-Nazi views, and the people surrounding her were anti-Nazi counter-demonstrators.

There was a very small number of right-wingers and a very large number of counter-demonstrators. A few moments later, someone said something to the effect of "oh just shut up" and punched her pretty hard in the face, knocking her to the ground and giving her a bloody nose. Here's a picture I took (pre-nose punch) for my newspaper.



There seems today to be a strong national current of unease about the Iraq war. Certainly the November congressional election was meant, and perceived by the White House, to be a signal of the nation's mood toward the handling of the Iraq war.

I don't know if there's widespread apathy toward the war. I think it's more of a widespread sense of concern with a tinge of helplessness. The nation was never properly mobilized for this project. In 2002-'03, public debate was strongly discouraged over whether or not armed conflict was the best way to handle the problems of Iraq. People were told it would be handled by the professionals and to go about their business. That initial hubris, followed by a pretty violent reality-check, is what makes it so hard for people to want to get involved in solving the problems as they exist now. So I think part of the attitude is a kind of a disillusioned disbelief, tempered by the sobering knowledge that, even if Iraq wasn't really a vital interest in 2003, it certainly has become one now.

Vietnam seems to have been viewed as more of an "exit of choice" -- if the United States left, the conflict was seen as distant enough and marginal enough that withdrawal was seen by many as a responsible choice that might actually minimize harm to the Vietnamese people (I'm talking about the perceptions of the mood at the time, not the reality).

By contrast, most people who've given this much thought seem convinced that a hasty exit from Iraq can make things much, much worse than they are, both for the Iraqi people and for the United States.

I think the nation as a whole has also endured many complex national and international situations since the 1960s. Just 25 years separated World War II from the anti-war rallies of the late 1960s. In a nuclear era of Great Power confrontation with the Soviets, a black-and-white war/antiwar choice made more sense to a larger number of people. The anti-war movement also carried over the momentum of other upheavals in American society, notably the Civil Rights Movement, Women's Lib, and the fast-growing social consciousness in popular arts and entertainment. All were interrelated.

[Tom Odom]

I can only say I am not surprised someone punched her...

She just looks so .... friendly

[RTK]

Any post-punch pictures?

[VinceC]

Any post-punch pictures?

I took one and published it, but I couldn't find it last time I was rumaging through negatives. I'm packing for an international move (from the U.S. back to Germany), so I won't be able to find it anytime soon.