Watching the IDF (catch all)

[Tom Odom]

True Steve. MILES has its own gamesmanship built into it, a fact we have contended with here for years and still deal with. On the other hand, MILES does reinforce the critical skill of marksmanship and the hide behind grass gamesmanship can be mitigated with a "God gun" in the hands of the OC walking the unit.

I suspect that the IDF will have to--as we have many times and other armies have done--go back and look at its basics, rather than its press (especially the press as the latest Lebanon incursion opened). Paintball may help.

Best
Tom

[aktarian]

Does anybody knows what happened to "Egoz" unit after 2000? Were they disbanded, used in Gaza and West Bank (not completly their environment but could be usefull) or soemthing else?

[Stan Reber]

Pain tends to teach us a leason far sooner than a beep or or the CO barking. Growing up in Northern PA and having been shot by a PO'd farmer with rock salt brings back some fond memories. Paintball at least smarts and still gets the job done far cheaper than OUR MILES. Yeah, a lazer is far more accurate and faster than a paintball. Bring back those basic training days when a M2HB was fired over your head to really appreciate just how fast 3000 FPS is and what it really means when the DS says you never hear the round that kills you.
This bit of advice has served me well. Still alive, albeit a little bid of a pain in the ass at times. Right Tom ?

Regards, Stan

[Jedburgh]

Does anybody knows what happened to "Egoz" unit after 2000? Were they disbanded, used in Gaza and West Bank (not completly their environment but could be usefull) or soemthing else?

Egoz still exists within the Golani Bde and they've operated fairly successfully in the territories. However, they suffered a number of KIA/WIA in the battle for Maroun ar-Ras, in the early stages of the offensive in Lebanon this year.

[Jedburgh]

Defense News, 20 Nov 06:

Does Technology Undercut War Leadership? Post-War Probes Target Israeli Command Failures

....in Lebanon, Israel's first digitized ground war, after-action probes found egregious cases where commanders relied on situational awareness provided by the sensor-fused data streaming into command centers instead of moving forward to assess critical points in the evolving battle.

"This war underscored the limitations of plasma, especially when it is accorded disproportionate priority over training and discipline," said Matan Vilnai, a retired major general and former Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) deputy chief of staff, now a prominent member of Israel's Labor Party.

In post-Lebanon War Israel, "plasma" has become derisive shorthand for the virtual command and control provided through networked operations and the dangers of digital-era interpretations of the Follow Me! principle....

[Uboat509]

I spent 18 months in the 509th at Polk (that's the OPFOR at JRTC) and I have nothing but the deepest contempt for MILES gear. I watched unit after unit come down there fully trained to fight in a MILES environment. It really does encourage the "John Wayne" mentality. As for SIMS, they are great for short range ie. CQC but they lose accuracy very quickly at ranges greater than, say, 30 - 50 meters. Furthermore, the conversion kits mean that you either have to take the optics off of your own gun and figure out how to mount them on the conversion barrel which may or may not have a rail and in cold weather the rounds have an annoying tendency to stick in the barrel. I have used paint balls a few times and although it does not work the marksmanship aspects, it does a great job otherwise. There is no question of weather or not you got hit. You know it and so does everyone around you, it hurts and pain tends to cut down on the "John Wayne" factor. A more ideal system would be an updated version of SIMS that does not require a conversion kit but until then paint ball is just fine for force on force.

SFC W

[dorsai]

What some of you say, regarding use of paintball for training purposes is true, it can teach bad habits, just as MILEs and any other form of training
can. The KEY is having skilled instructors who can distinguish what is right and wrong. Once the proper ROE is adopted, misuse drops. Limited ammo, magazine exchanges and use of specialized pellets (invisible to those being shot at) are all factors which can increase usefulness of paintball. Bottom line, it's useful when put into its proper context. It's also far cheaper, approximately .04 cents (US) compared to other force-on-force alternatives. MILEs uses blanks, which cost .25 cents or more depending on caliber, while Simunitions and UTM options costs range between .45-.65 cents per round. Cost is a huge factor driving the military's move towards paintball, just as anyone who has been to the Mech site at Knox, or through some of the training that's taking place at places like Bragg, Carson and Bliss can atest.

Anyone wanting more detailed information on MIL-SIM paintball is free to contact me.

Sincerely,

Andrew Van Der Plaats
Non Lethal Training Munitions, LLC
sales@nltm.us

[goesh]

When a hard frost would set in, we played this game as kids where one brother would hide behind some boards leaned against a shed and the rest of us would gather frozen calf turds to use a projectiles. The kid beind the boards had a safe zone about 20' away on each side of the boards and he was fair game in between either safe zone once he sprinted out and away from the board shield. When we switched to using BB guns in warmer weather, we would seldom leave the security of the board shield and sprint for a safe zone. Risk was much higher in 'real war' even though we would cup a hand on the side of the head shielding the eyes. I think the same applies to paint balls - risks and moves will be taken that wouldn't be in real combat.

[LawVol]

I've trained with MILES gear and, although useful, it doesn't create the lesson that simunitions does. While the ringing of MILES gear may cause you to think a little, it's mostly just fun. However, looking down at a big red splotch of paint plastered right over your heart gives you a wake up call. I thought about that for days afterward. Concealment does not equal cover!