The Second Ammendment Lobby and Police Safety

[Kiwigrunt]

Carl, I fully agree with you. Except for point three. But that is a result of point two.
It has been said that Obama is the best gun-salesman the US has ever had. And it has even blown over to NZ. I have bought two of the buggers in the last two years (actually, they really just followed me home) as a result of a failed attempt by police to tightening guncontol here. I never had any intention to get any. Go figure. 'Something must be done' syndrome can indeed suffer from the law of unintended consequences.


Added: Stan and I replied at the same time.

Yup, words matter. And 'assault weapon' is a very poor choice. It is far too emotive. I think it does both sides of the argument more harm than good.
The distinction between evil guns and sports guns was made here in 1992 after….you guessed it, a massacre. But fortunately our police / law makers were wise enough to use a less emotive term. We call them MSSAs (Military Style Semi Automatic).
To point out that the function of the gun has little to do with the looks is fair enough. However, I think that over here, the distinction was made based more on the looks than anything else. It is thought that the very looks of these guns is often what can pull the massacre fuknuckles over the edge.

[Stan]

Added: Stan and I replied at the same time.

Yes, but I drew faster and with a .45

[Kiwigrunt]

Yes, but I drew faster and with a .45

Well, yes. It took me a while to load 30 rounds in a mag.....

[Stan]

Well, yes. It took me a while to load 30 rounds in a mag.....

Well put !

And you obviously loaded at least two mags aka American mode, then taped them together aka African style

[Kiwigrunt]

Well put !

And you obviously loaded at least two mags aka American mode, then taped them together aka African style

Yup. M193 in one and SS109 in the other. In case I may need to defeat body armour. Also made sure my back-up sights are zeroed in...just never know!

[Kiwigrunt]

I agree with Dayuhan. This whole gun discourse in the US seems like a self-perpetuating avalanche. And it seems increasingly difficult to separate it from other areas of discourse, in the sense that the ferocity of the narrative sets a tone that vibrates through society.

From my vantage point on this side of the puddle, I perceive two main areas of discourse that seem to be getting increasingly heated and extreme in the US. That is guns / 2nd amendment, and religion.

So the original thread question of "Has the Second Amendment/Assault Weapon Lobby become a destabilizing force in the US?" can perhaps be answered with a "yes".

How far 'out of control' does the govt need to get before a well armed militia storms the White House? Or in what way does the 'we need to be able to defend ourselves against our govt' crowd think that guns provide the solution to whatever wrongs they perceive the govt to be inflicting?

Obviously, I am looking at all of this from the outside in. I am not an American. Condor, when you say that 'a sizable portion of people who feel this country is going down a path that is divergent from what our founding fathers put into their framing of this country', can you give some examples of what topics you think are at the core of this perception? What are these people afraid of? Does it have to do with things like employment, healthcare, education etc.?
From here, it looks like they may just be afraid of loosing their guns…

[Stan]

Obviously, I am looking at all of this from the outside in. I am not an American. Condor, when you say that 'a sizable portion of people who feel this country is going down a path that is divergent from what our founding fathers put into their framing of this country', can you give some examples of what topics you think are at the core of this perception? What are these people afraid of? Does it have to do with things like employment, healthcare, education etc.?
From here, it looks like they may just be afraid of loosing their guns…

I have to say that people in rural America fear the worst of everything, not just firearm ownership.

The core perception of the Obama administration (and to an extent, the Clinton era) is that our rights are dwindling. However, Obama did a better job of riding that fine line without saying anything.

If the general perception where I grew up in rural America is that our rights are slipping away, it could be corn on the cob today and firearms tomorrow, etc, etc. While I could care less about owning an AR15 or AK and it's too easy for me to dismiss those so-called rights to ownership, the remainder of rural America doesn't see it that way and would argue with me that by not giving a Sierra about this issue, will eventually translate into everything under the sun being restricted. These are some serious farmers with no military background !

[carl]

Kiwi:

Perhaps if there is any de-stabilization going on it is because of the phenomenom (sic) you experienced yourself, sort of. The gov and segments of the polity seem determined to eliminate the right spelled out by the Second Amendment and people react to that.. So maybe you should look at the "Second Amendment"/scary looking like a movie weapon' lobby as a reaction to a provocation.

One of the most disturbing elements of the elite liberal establishment's attitudes is the hostility toward religion. This is being played out in some court cases now. THAT is very dangerous, far more than they know. The US is a very religious country and if the gov seriously tries to mess with that there will be trouble. Serious trouble.

Stan:

ARs, at least 5.56 mm/.223 ones aren't meant for hunting much more than prairie dogs. They are used for all kinds of other things and are good at those things.

There are really good shooters. And then there are not such really good shooters...like me. We started out with 8 shot .45s and when we switched to 16 shot Glock 31s I felt a whole lot better about things. As I felt a whole lot better with the AR up front and the 12 gauge in the trunk.

[TheCurmudgeon]

How far 'out of control' does the govt need to get before a well armed militia storms the White House? Or in what way does the 'we need to be able to defend ourselves against our govt' crowd think that guns provide the solution to whatever wrongs they perceive the govt to be inflicting?

I doubt we will see armed militia's attacking the White House soon. From what I can tell, the automobile seems to be the weapon of choice for attacking the White House, but shooting incidents are on the uptick. It seems like the first was in 1975, then 1994, then they ramp up in the 1990 and the last decade, but I can be sure. I cannot find a comprehensive compilation of the attacks.

I do think that there has been a change in attitude. Voting and political action used to be a popular method for creating political change. Even riots and throwing rocks. Now it appears that guns are becoming an acceptable, if not patriotic, option.