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Thread: The Second Ammendment Lobby and Police Safety

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    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
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    Default The situation in England

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCurmudgeon View Post
    David,

    Has the question of private ownership of Military Style Semi-Automatic weapons ever been reconsidered in a political context in England since the ban was put in place?
    No, it is very unlikely that the ban will be reconsidered, let alone lifted. There is some pressure for lighter regulation, from serious match shooting enthusiasts for example. For a host of reasons 'military style weapons', let alone semi-autos, were never licensed in large numbers. It has become increasingly hard to legally possess a handgun - it has been illegal since 1997 - and 'home defence' has never been accepted as a rationale.

    The legislative 'crack down', mainly using greater regulation, came after four mass shootings:

    Hungerford 1987, sixteen dead, wounded fifteen, using a military semi-auto SKS and other weapons:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungerford_massacre

    Monkseaton 1989, one dead, sixteen shot, with a shotgun:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkseaton_shootings

    Dunblane 1996, sixteen children and one adult dead, using licensed hand guns:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_massacre

    Cumbria 2010, twelve dead, with eleven injured, using a shotgun and .22 rifle:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumbria_shootings

    We still have regular home hostage incidents, armed crime - mainly with illegal handguns; it is rare to have multiple shooter incidents - in fact I cannot readily recall one. The one I can was long ago, the 1911 Sidney Street siege, involving Russian anarchists, with automatic weapons, three policemen and a firefighter murdered:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Sidney_Street
    Last edited by davidbfpo; 04-06-2014 at 07:08 PM.
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    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCurmudgeon View Post
    Stan, the funny thing is that American's, as a group, have more rights (or more correctly, fewer governmental restrictions) than they did fifty years ago. Segregation is one example, marihuana, profanity, along with interracial marriage, birth control, and any number of other "blue laws" that have been relaxed. I am not sure that people today would recognize the America of the 1950's. Now on the flip side of that, and in line with Carl's comments on religion, many of these blue laws had a religious basis. It is not so much that people are becoming less free as it is that the traditional religious based restrictions on society are falling away, perhaps creating a feeling of being lost, without a harbor in the storm of social change. I really can't say. But it could be a contributing factor.
    Stan,
    Not near as funny as just strange. Where I spent my youth just south of Reading, and to this day, no alcohol sales on Sunday. You're right though, doesn't seem to matter and perhaps even a false sense of security. The Amish still do their thing, everyone gets along.

    However, if we were to one day tell all those folks they could no longer hunt, use a firearm, etc. that would be something I would dare to witness. You may end up going into the forest to find them, and would indeed be met with stiff opposition if not shot.
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    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    David,
    I recall our SO-13/15 instructors telling us that "3rd world immigrants and their offspring" involved in gang wars posed the worst threat with firearm related crimes in 2009 increasing by nearly 50%.

    There was even talk that white British children attending schools in London would soon be considered a minority.

    I have not done my homework (I have a day job too), but would assume this has changed ?
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    Council Member TheCurmudgeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stan View Post
    However, if we were to one day tell all those folks they could no longer hunt, use a firearm, etc. that would be something I would dare to witness. You may end up going into the forest to find them, and would indeed be met with stiff opposition if not shot.
    I built a couple of roads in Afghanistan. We would always go to the next village the road would pass through, meet with the elders, and explain who we were and what we were doing. It was always standard to ask if there was anything else we could do. In one village the elder said "No, you come you build your road, you leave. We don't want your religion or your culture." That is a bit of a paraphrase, but generally accurate. That is not too far from the feeling you are describing. Human nature is pretty standard across the species even if what we want is not always the same.
    "I can change almost anything ... but I can't change human nature."

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    Council Member TheCurmudgeon's Avatar
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    Jumping to the Social media, every now and then I see this.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    "I can change almost anything ... but I can't change human nature."

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidbfpo View Post
    No, it is very unlikely that the ban will be reconsidered, let alone lifted. There is some pressure for lighter regulation, from serious match shooting enthusiasts for example. For a host of reasons 'military style weapons', let alone semi-autos, were never licensed in large numbers. It has become increasingly hard to legally possess a handgun - it has been illegal since 1997 - and 'home defence' has never been accepted as a rationale.

    Interestingly, single shot (straight pull) AR15s appear to be allowed in the UK.
    Nothing that results in human progress is achieved with unanimous consent. (Christopher Columbus)

    All great truth passes through three stages: first it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
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    ONWARD

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    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
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    Default The 'militarisation' photo

    That photo is from last week disorder @ Albuquerque. I did wonder if those shown were State Police, as APD had been dressed differently.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwigrunt View Post
    Interestingly, single shot (straight pull) AR15s appear to be allowed in the UK.
    They maybe available, but I'd like to see how an application for a Firearms Licence went. I'd wager a fresh applicant would get nowhere. Only someone with a long history of target shooting at a club (who often store the weapons) or being a professional shooter in a rural area would make progress.

    Amongst the conditions is:
    You must also prove to the chief officer of police that you’re allowed to have a firearms certificate and pose no danger to public safety or to the peace.
    See:https://www.gov.uk/shotgun-and-firearm-certificates
    davidbfpo

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    Council Member TheCurmudgeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidbfpo View Post
    That photo is from last week disorder @ Albuquerque. I did wonder if those shown were State Police, as APD had been dressed differently.
    Well they certainly don't help reduce the tension when they are dressed like that.
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    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stan View Post
    David,
    I recall our SO-13/15 instructors telling us that "3rd world immigrants and their offspring" involved in gang wars posed the worst threat with firearm related crimes in 2009 increasing by nearly 50%.

    There was even talk that white British children attending schools in London would soon be considered a minority.

    I have not done my homework (I have a day job too), but would assume this has changed ?
    Some short answers.

    London certainly has a widespread problem with knife crime, gangs, drugs and more - the roots of which can be seen coming from immigration. Many of the offspring, let alone their parents, are now British-born and hold UK citizenship. I don't know any stats, but 95% of all murders in London are detected - the Met's Commissioner on BBC TV last week.

    Locally firearms-related incidents have dropped off, with fewer fatalities, instead the preference is for "punishment" injuries and very few ever complain officially.

    Nationally the prisons have a higher number of non-white (often called BME officially) inmates.

    There have been numerous references, said with pride - except for a few - that London's population is now 40% non-British born. That does not mean non-white as the last ten years have seen large French (500k mainly in London & south-east) and Polish (1m plus across the UK) communities arrive. It has been reported, mainly using polling, that "new comer" communities are more loyal to Britain than the indigenous!
    davidbfpo

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    Council Member TheCurmudgeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidbfpo View Post
    There have been numerous references, said with pride - except for a few - that London's population is now 40% non-British born. That does not mean non-white as the last ten years have seen large French (500k mainly in London & south-east) and Polish (1m plus across the UK) communities arrive. It has been reported, mainly using polling, that "new comer" communities are more loyal to Britain than the indigenous!
    On a personal note, I am a first and a half generation American. My mother was born in a part of Poland that is now part of the Ukraine and my father was a first generation American who fought in WWII. My mother did not teach me Polish, much to my chagrin, because we were now Americans. And even though she hated Truman for selling out Poland in the treaties with Stalin, America was her home and we were Americans.

    I always assumed this was an American thing, but I guess I can see it from any group that moves to a country they see as "Utopia".
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCurmudgeon View Post
    Well they certainly don't help reduce the tension when they are dressed like that.
    I too have thought for some time (and still do to an extent) that police are often too militarised in appearance. However, I read an article (by a cop) refuting this and making comparisons with other occupations. I can't find the article but he made a fair point. Look at how fire-fighters are dressed, or even construction workers. So those excessive looking kit-outs would be consistent with our general risk- and litigation adversity, and associated 'need' to wrap our employees up in as much protective gear as possible.
    Nothing that results in human progress is achieved with unanimous consent. (Christopher Columbus)

    All great truth passes through three stages: first it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
    (Arthur Schopenhauer)

    ONWARD

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    Council Member TheCurmudgeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwigrunt View Post
    I too have thought for some time (and still do to an extent) that police are often too militarised in appearance. However, I read an article (by a cop) refuting this and making comparisons with other occupations. I can't find the article but he made a fair point. Look at how fire-fighters are dressed, or even construction workers. So those excessive looking kit-outs would be consistent with our general risk- and litigation adversity, and associated 'need' to wrap our employees up in as much protective gear as possible.
    True, but there are less threatening ways to design protective equipment. I remember a few years back the New Jersey Highway Patrol had to change their uniforms because their high leather boots and grey uniforms made them look like storm troopers.

    On the flip side, they were the uniforms that most girls wanted their dates to be dressed in.

    http://www.phillyburbs.com/news/wann...f0bc4838f.html

    I can remember way, way back in the 1980s when there were studies done on what effects colors had on people. For some reason pink made them calm. We then painted our drunk tank pink. (I was an enlisted MP in those days). We made decisions on this an other things based on psychology - based on how the public would perceive us. We wanted to be seen as an allies, not an adversary. I guess those days are long gone.
    Last edited by TheCurmudgeon; 04-06-2014 at 11:19 PM.
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    Council Member TheCurmudgeon's Avatar
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    Let me throw out another hypothesis. I will call this the "roller coaster" hypothesis. People in the US have pretty much everything they need and most of what they want. If they don't they have no one to blame but themselves. They are secure. They have no realistic threats.

    This condition is antithetical to the human condition. We have developed to be able to deal with challenges. We have "fight or flight" capabilities built into us. Now, for a long time we have found outlets for this need for the fear of a near death experience. Scary movies and roller coasters. "The Walking Dead" is very popular. In the end, it is a story of survival at a very animal level. But eventually all that fails to satisfy. So we begin to create the chaos that we need to feel alive. We create a conflict between the police and the citizenry that really has no substance other than the feeling that we are doing something that is life-or-death and is important. It is the civilian equivalent to what a Soldier feels in combat, something that has been idealized in the public eye in the last twelve years, but only a very limited portion of the population has really felt.

    OK, I may be nuts, but I thought I would throw it out there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCurmudgeon View Post
    Let me throw out another hypothesis. I will call this the "roller coaster" hypothesis. People in the US have pretty much everything they need and most of what they want. If they don't they have no one to blame but themselves. They are secure. They have no realistic threats.

    This condition is antithetical to the human condition. We have developed to be able to deal with challenges. We have "fight or flight" capabilities built into us. Now, for a long time we have found outlets for this need for the fear of a near death experience. Scary movies and roller coasters. "The Walking Dead" is very popular. In the end, it is a story of survival at a very animal level. But eventually all that fails to satisfy. So we begin to create the chaos that we need to feel alive. We create a conflict between the police and the citizenry that really has no substance other than the feeling that we are doing something that is life-or-death and is important. It is the civilian equivalent to what a Soldier feels in combat, something that has been idealized in the public eye in the last twelve years, but only a very limited portion of the population has really felt.

    OK, I may be nuts, but I thought I would throw it out there.
    I think you're right. It's the only explanation I can think of for the omniphobia that seems so pervasive in America.

    It is of course true that a skilled and experienced shooter can wreak havoc with almost any sort of firearm. What makes so many people so nervous about what are being called "assault weapons" is that they are uniquely suited to allowing the relatively unskilled and inexperienced shooter to achieve the same result. That results in people pushing for control of such weapons out of fear, which in turn results in people accumulating more of them in the fear that they will be controlled. Where that goes I'm really not sure...
    “The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary”

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    Council Member 120mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCurmudgeon View Post
    Stan, the funny thing is that American's, as a group, have more rights (or more correctly, fewer governmental restrictions) than they did fifty years ago. Segregation is one example, marihuana, profanity, along with interracial marriage, birth control, and any number of other "blue laws" that have been relaxed. I am not sure that people today would recognize the America of the 1950's. Now on the flip side of that, and in line with Carl's comments on religion, many of these blue laws had a religious basis. It is not so much that people are becoming less free as it is that the traditional religious based restrictions on society are falling away, perhaps creating a feeling of being lost, without a harbor in the storm of social change. I really can't say. But it could be a contributing factor.
    And the good citizens of the Soviet Union had far more rights than those of the US, back when they were around. Most of the new "rights" are embodied in "restrictions" of course.

    What you're missing, is even a rudimentary understand of the American political system. For all these "new rights" to be brought about, the Federal government had to wipe their *sses with the 10th Amendment of the US Constitution.

    The 800 pound gorilla that no one appears to be noticing in the room is that local government and state government is being steam-rollered in nearly every aspect of our lives by the Federal government, thereby effectively dis-empowering local governance. This, of course is how big government statists inadvertently create insurgencies.

    It's so bad that local schools have their lunch menu dictated to them by an unelected tyrant whose only job qualification is having sex with the President. Never mind that the mere existence of a Federal Department of Education is a violation of the 10th Amendment, as well as others.

    On the militarization of the police: We no longer have police forces that do police work. Talking to officers in our small (7500 - 25,000 population) towns in Iowa, they are all either ON the tactics team or just biding their time on patrol until they GET on the tactics team. Our 15,000 person town just got their first MRAP, and a neighboring town of 20,000 just used their Tac Team to tear up a house in order to make a $1000 credit card fraud arrest. Which they failed to make, since the perpetrators didn't live in that house.

    What we are creating in the US, as urban centers become more powerful, the federal government becomes more centralized and tied to "control" is the perfect storm for an insurgency. A state of affairs which has happened before, with near boring regularity as central governments cease being responsive and viewed as legitimate. Personally, I doubt the legitimacy of Michele Obama to dictate that a First grade girl and a senior boy on the football team eat exactly the same 1700 calorie a day diet.

    Blaming the armed protestors and the AR/AK enthusiasts for the Fed government screwing up governance is getting it exactly backwards, imo.
    Last edited by 120mm; 04-07-2014 at 03:30 AM.

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    Council Member 120mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCurmudgeon View Post
    Let me throw out another hypothesis. I will call this the "roller coaster" hypothesis. People in the US have pretty much everything they need and most of what they want. If they don't they have no one to blame but themselves. They are secure. They have no realistic threats.

    This condition is antithetical to the human condition. We have developed to be able to deal with challenges. We have "fight or flight" capabilities built into us. Now, for a long time we have found outlets for this need for the fear of a near death experience. Scary movies and roller coasters. "The Walking Dead" is very popular. In the end, it is a story of survival at a very animal level. But eventually all that fails to satisfy. So we begin to create the chaos that we need to feel alive. We create a conflict between the police and the citizenry that really has no substance other than the feeling that we are doing something that is life-or-death and is important. It is the civilian equivalent to what a Soldier feels in combat, something that has been idealized in the public eye in the last twelve years, but only a very limited portion of the population has really felt.

    OK, I may be nuts, but I thought I would throw it out there.
    I diametrically disagree. We have an over-centralized, out of control, federal government which is rapidly sucking up more than its share of tax without accountability. While local governance dies on the vine. If more Americans WERE frightened, things would be better.

    The government is in danger of losing its legitimacy altogether, both central AND local.

    And Europe is dead. It will take time for the math to catch up to them, but what is happening in the hinterlands in the EU will catch up to them later.

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    Council Member TheCurmudgeon's Avatar
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    120, I understand the power of the 10th amendment, even if the Supreme Court does not. I just feel that, whatever power it had died after the civil war. Even so, the conditions that exist seem ripe for an insurgent or counter-culture attack on the traditional seats of power.
    Last edited by TheCurmudgeon; 04-07-2014 at 03:51 AM.
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    Hey 120mm! You're back. Glad to see you. Good post too. Where you been?

    Now a general comment.

    I am as concerned about militarization of state an local police as anybody but in the case of the riot police shown in the photo above I really don't see how you can get away with looking like anything other than a riot control officer. A helmet, face shield, gas mask, lots of padding and a big stick are sort of the minimum if you expect guys to stand there and take it, as riot officers are sometimes expected to do. And anyway I don't see how being dressed and equipped like that is provocative. The reason for that getup and equipment is to give the officers multiple options short of shooting when rocks are flying their way. Of course it doesn't take much to provoke people who want to be provoked, and the UNM hangers on want to be provoked.

    David:

    I think those guys in the photo are Bernalillo County sheriffs officers. That is what it looked like from all the photos I looked at.
    Last edited by carl; 04-07-2014 at 05:33 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCurmudgeon View Post
    Stan, the funny thing is that American's, as a group, have more rights (or more correctly, fewer governmental restrictions) than they did fifty years ago. Segregation is one example, marihuana, profanity, along with interracial marriage, birth control, and any number of other "blue laws" that have been relaxed. I am not sure that people today would recognize the America of the 1950's. Now on the flip side of that, and in line with Carl's comments on religion, many of these blue laws had a religious basis. It is not so much that people are becoming less free as it is that the traditional religious based restrictions on society are falling away, perhaps creating a feeling of being lost, without a harbor in the storm of social change. I really can't say. But it could be a contributing factor.
    No, I think you are wrong. We have much more sexual licence now than in the past along with much more widespread legal drug use. None of those things mean much at all to the vast center of the Americans. In the things that matter to them, us, things are much less free.

    The best example of that I can give is something I read about the length of the official US Government manual for the establishment of an airport, just a little country airport. The current edition is about 900 pages long. The previous edition was, I read, about 90. Anyway you cut it, that is less free. And that I think is happening everywhere.
    "We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene

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