The Second Ammendment Lobby and Police Safety

[slapout9]

That's easy to say when one is a part of the default group identity of what it means to be "American". The outrage during the last superbowl about the multicultural Coca-Cola commercial demonstrates that significant opposition still exists to the idea of a multi-lingual, multi-racial, multi-religious America. In essence, you are saying that non-white, non-Christian, non-male, non-English-speaking "Americans" need not apply!

Did you watch the video? It's hard to see how you came to that conclusion if you watched the video.

[slapout9]

AP,

As I noted with Slap, it is the psychology at work that I am interested in. The size of the affected group will only change how we define the action, as either a few random acts of political violence, an small or large insurgency, or an actual revolt. So if only say 2% of the population are affected, and of that only 10% feel the need to use violence, and of that only 10% act on that feeling, you have a relatively small group of political criminals. If now 30% of the population are affected and that feeling is strong enough that 30% of that group feel that violence is justified and 50% act on that, you now have an insurgency, ... you get the idea.

But the basic psychology that causes people to act is, essentially, the same.

Yes, the psychology is the same. In order to be willing to go through that much pain and misery that would come from a full blown revolution the person has to believe that violence is the only option and that a violent option is better than the alternative being presented.

Basically people with nothing left to loose. Which is exactly the condition that many politicians are trying to create with the so called immigration policy.

The American Government is taking care of and protecting the rights and livelihoods of a foreign population at the expense of the American population! The policies have and will continue to create massive economic dislocations, a recipe for long term disaster IMO.

[AmericanPride]

Did you watch the video? It's hard to see how you came to that conclusion if you watched the video.

I did; my comments were in response to your statement about the "we need to get rid of the Democratic Communist Party Propaganda technique of Hyphenated Americans". So really the question is how does the concept of a multi-lingual, multi-religious, multi-racial American capture the linguistic and intellectual space in the American public?

Which is exactly the condition that many politicians are trying to create with the so called immigration policy. The American Government is taking care of and protecting the rights and livelihoods of a foreign population at the expense of the American population! The policies have and will continue to create massive economic dislocations, a recipe for long term disaster IMO.

This is a myth on many levels.

(1) The Obama administration has deported illegal immigrants at a record pace, exceeding even the Bush administration. I think this has less to do with Obama's policies and more to do with the improved effectiveness of the Department of Homeland Security. For a free country, the US has a very restrictive immigration policy. And the reason why the population of illegal migrants is so high is because the "supply" of legal entry is intentionally significantly lower than the demand. Whatever advantages or protections provided to this population (which isn't much), this is not at the expense of the American public.

(2) The "massive economic dislocations" in the United States over the last, say, 30-40 years have very little to do with immigration. The causes of the transformation of the American economy are: (1) financialization, (2) transition from a rural society to an urban one with rapid urbanization, (3) transformation from a manufacturing economy to a knowledge-service one integrated in a globalizing economy (not to mention the regular shocks to the economy through the boom and busts cycles that hit low income communities the hardest). Low-skilled migrants with no legal access to the economy cannot and do not succeed in a system that privileges wealth, education, and idea generation. If Americans are so desperate as to be fearful of losing positions in the janitorial, home improvement, and farm-hand sectors to immigrants, then we really need to reassess how our education and economic systems are shaping the opportunities of Americans.

So, I think the solution is two-fold: (1) expand, not minimize or criminalize, immigration opportunities to integrate migrants (and to enable greater government accountability of the population), which will lower costs and increases revenues (2) more proactive federal programs to rebuild a crumbling economy given the failure of state and local governments to fulfill the most basic functions of governance. What the 2008 recession really demonstrated was the fragility of local governments - this is the level of government with the most interaction with the population but also the least amount of resources to deal with the problems facing a modern society. This was the level of government most devestated by the recession and it's the level of government that requires the most federal and state assistance. Failure at this level of government is the greatest risk to American security and tranquility.

[carl]

What I am trying to convey is that the kind of people largely responsible for extending liberties and rights to those previously oppressed or otherwise disadvantaged, are often those that receive labels like 'commie or 'benign master class who decided that freedom is a group thing'. I extracted these words from the post I quoted; I did not come up with them. Hence the sarcasm icon.

So you do indeed mean that a special class conferred upon the rest of us rights or liberties. I disagree. I think us Americans did for ourselves over the course of many many years through the efforts of many many people, most of whom are unknown.

I don't like the idea of believing that there is a special class like that at all. It too easily leads to tyranny.

Freedom should apply to all individuals, and can only be measured against that of all other individuals in the community / group. So yes, pretty much as per your second to last line. So, even though I did not come up with the group thing, I think it has as much to do with the group as it has with the (all) individuals that make up the group. It has always been that way, except that the group has not always been all-inclusive (come to think of it, probably never will be). Seeing the rights purely as individual - and having nothing to do with any group - is not helpful to those people who are denied the rights by the group.

I think you are confusing rights, natural rights, those given to the individual because of his existence as an individual by God with measuring the degree to which those rights are able to be exercised within a system created by men. Those are two different things.

The rights themselves have nothing at all to do with a group. Measuring them does, as measuring has to be done by relating one thing to another.

[slapout9]

I did; my comments were in response to your statement about the "we need to get rid of the Democratic Communist Party Propaganda technique of Hyphenated Americans". So really the question is how does the concept of a multi-lingual, multi-religious, multi-racial American capture the linguistic and intellectual space in the American public?

That is why we need to have a common language, common borders,common law and common customs.

This is a myth on many levels.

(1) The Obama administration has deported illegal immigrants at a record pace, exceeding even the Bush administration. I think this has less to do with Obama's policies and more to do with the improved effectiveness of the Department of Homeland Security. For a free country, the US has a very restrictive immigration policy. And the reason why the population of illegal migrants is so high is because the "supply" of legal entry is intentionally significantly lower than the demand. Whatever advantages or protections provided to this population (which isn't much), this is not at the expense of the American public.

(2) The "massive economic dislocations" in the United States over the last, say, 30-40 years have very little to do with immigration. The causes of the transformation of the American economy are: (1) financialization, (2) transition from a rural society to an urban one with rapid urbanization, (3) transformation from a manufacturing economy to a knowledge-service one integrated in a globalizing economy (not to mention the regular shocks to the economy through the boom and busts cycles that hit low income communities the hardest). Low-skilled migrants with no legal access to the economy cannot and do not succeed in a system that privileges wealth, education, and idea generation. If Americans are so desperate as to be fearful of losing positions in the janitorial, home improvement, and farm-hand sectors to immigrants, then we really need to reassess how our education and economic systems are shaping the opportunities of Americans.

So, I think the solution is two-fold: (1) expand, not minimize or criminalize, immigration opportunities to integrate migrants (and to enable greater government accountability of the population), which will lower costs and increases revenues (2) more proactive federal programs to rebuild a crumbling economy given the failure of state and local governments to fulfill the most basic functions of governance. What the 2008 recession really demonstrated was the fragility of local governments - this is the level of government with the most interaction with the population but also the least amount of resources to deal with the problems facing a modern society. This was the level of government most devastated by the recession and it's the level of government that requires the most federal and state assistance. Failure at this level of government is the greatest risk to American security and tranquility.

I very much disagree about it being a myth, I have seen it up close and in person both while in LE and even more when I retired. I even met one very successful lady of an automotive parts company that was told she had 3 options "Immigrate, Automate, or Evaporate". Immigrate went 2 ways import cheap workers or Immigrate the entire company to somewhere South of the Border. Her response was to move the company because she had no choice, you cannot compete against $2.00 per hour vs. $15.00 per hour the prevailing Mex vs USA wages at the time.

I agree that this started a long time before President Obama, this has been in process for decades but just like Ross Perot said if NAFTA (per Bill Clinton) passes then that giant sucking sound you hear will be thousands of jobs leaving America and they have. I also agree financialization has/had a great deal to do with it.

We don't need anymore programs we need to entirely re-work them. They have been in place for nearly 50 years in some cases and they do not help they simply breed generational dependency on the Government. I most certainly believe in helping people but I also believe in programs that create the proper return for the USA which is Independence not Dependence.

[JarodParker]

I am not sure whether a single incident where someone shows up at a protest with a loaded weapons will turn into two, or twenty, or whether they will eventually use that weapon. My feelings are that they will. There were many acts of civil disobedience but a massacre in Boston galvanized the colonists into feeling that they were not longer under the protection of the King's Soldiers. I don’t think this will get that far, but it is early.

Perhaps you spoke too soon...

U.S. agency ends Nevada cattle roundup, releases herd after stand-off
Link
U.S. officials ended a stand-off with hundreds of armed protesters in the Nevada desert on Saturday, calling off the government's roundup of cattle it said were illegally grazing on federal land and giving about 300 animals back to the rancher who owned them.

Anti-government groups, right-wing politicians and gun-rights activists camped around Bundy's ranch to support him.

"Based on information about conditions on the ground and in consultation with law enforcement, we have made a decision to conclude the cattle gather because of our serious concern about the safety of employees and members of the public," the bureau's director, Neil Kornze, said in a statement. The protesters, who at the height of the standoff numbered about 1,000, met the news with applause.

[Dayuhan]

The post above is a good example of the perception issues. This is how that particular incident is perceived in some quarters...

“It is not about turtles it is about water. There are developers working for military contractors that want that land and water for mining weapons grade minerals for industry… they want to sell the land by the highway for real estate development because it’s close to I-15 and the Bundy’s have been refusing to sell what they actually own directly for over 20 years. Many buyers sent me out there with crazy offers for that land for many years. It is prime real estate not worthless desert. There is a natural gas pipeline going through there and lots of water under ground too. Somebody connected to a military corporation is using political power and the BLM to muscle those people out.”

http://www.secretsofthefed.com/break...m-death-video/

Is it water, "weapons grade minerals", real estate development, gas pipelines... they don't seem to know, or care, except that it HAS to be a vast conspiracy by "them" or "a military corporation". Makes no sense, but when belief gets far enough out on the fringe, it doesn't have to.

[TheCurmudgeon]

Save a Life, Kill A Cop

Albuquerque police are investigating how flyers that encourage the killing of officers found their way into copies of the Albuquerque Journal, according to KOB News.

A spokesperson with APD said the flyers were stuck into newspapers, and a wife of an APD officer said one was even delivered to her doorstep.

The spokesperson said attacks and threats against police have been overwhelming at times. People have been calling in with death threats, their property has been vandalized multiple times, their social media sites have been inundated with various hate messages, and now these flyers.

Read more at http://thefreethoughtproject.com/sli...3aEDrBx1eZz.99

Just for historical note, the below flyers were floating around Dallas in November 1963. It is worth noting that appointing "Anti-Christian" judges is treason. I guess some things never change.

Two days before President Kennedy’s trip to Dallas, right-wingers began circulating around the city some 5,000 anti-Kennedy handbills. Entitled “Wanted for Treason,” these leaflets were designed to look like a police “wanted” poster, with front and profile photographs of Kennedy’s head.

http://www.law.uga.edu/dwilkes_more/...blownaway.html

[TheCurmudgeon]

A little more on the Bundy versus BLM saga ...

So, on the one hand we have Bundy, who’s said, “I don’t recognize [the] United States government as even existing.” It led him to repeatedly ignore federal law, repeatedly blow federal court rulings, and refuse to pay federal fines for his transgressions. On the other hand we have the United States government – which does, in fact, exist – showing considerable restraint in trying to resolve the problem.

http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-s...-crisis-nevada

and the view from the protestors side:

“People are getting tired of the federal government having unlimited power,” said Bundy’s wife, Carol, in a statement.

Last week, government agents descended upon the property, which is 80 miles northeast of Las Vegas. They set up a blockade on the road leading to the ranch, and clashed with several hundred protesters. Tasers were used on at least one person: Bundy’s son, Ammon. Another son, Dave, was briefly taken into custody by authorities.

The establishment of a designated “First Amendment zone,” drew criticism from many people, including Nevada Governor Brian Sandoval, a Republican. Citizens’ free speech rights were protected only when they were standing in the First Amendment zone.

“Most disturbing to me is the BLM’s establishment of a ‘First Amendment Area’ that tramples upon Nevadans’ fundamental rights under the U.S. Constitution,” said Sandoval in a statement.

http://dailycaller.com/2014/04/12/vi...allenged-feds/

Just so you know, the guy in the picture is not a Federal Agent. He is one of the protestors who was probably outside the "first amendment zone".

[slapout9]

A little more on the Bundy versus BLM saga ...

http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-s...-crisis-nevada

and the view from the protestors side:

http://dailycaller.com/2014/04/12/vi...allenged-feds/

Just so you know, the guy in the picture is not a Federal Agent. He is one of the protestors who was probably outside the "first amendment zone".

I think there may be more to this story then meets the eye. A local talk show host Dan Morris,former official in the Reagan administration , reported that the head of the BLM was a former Campaign staffer for US Senator from Nevada Harry Reid. A strange left wing organization called the Center for Biological Diversity, may have been the organization that forced this situation to a head. This may be more about the radical ideaology and methods of our present administration and how they get past the rule of law. This may turn into another scandal for the administration and they surely don't need that.

[slapout9]

Save a Life, Kill A Cop



Just for historical note, the below flyers were floating around Dallas in November 1963. It is worth noting that appointing "Anti-Christian" judges is treason. I guess some things never change.


http://www.law.uga.edu/dwilkes_more/...blownaway.html

Curmudgy,
Things have been a lot worse. During the early 70's the Anti War radicals used to bomb and break into National Guard Armories. This resulted in the CQ's at all the barracks of the 82nd Airborne Division being armed with .45 calibre side arms.We also had to check the arms room every 30 minutes and note it in our logs. Then when I seperated service and went into LE the underground began there campaign of shooting police officers and bombing government buildings. This is all standard Communist Revolutionary Warfare doctrine.

[TheCurmudgeon]

Curmudgy,
Things have been a lot worse. During the early 70's the Anti War radicals used to bomb and break into National Guard Armories. This resulted in the CQ's at all the barracks of the 82nd Airborne Division being armed with .45 calibre side arms.We also had to check the arms room every 30 minutes and note it in our logs. Then when I seperated service and went into LE the underground began there campaign of shooting police officers and bombing government buildings. This is all standard Communist Revolutionary Warfare doctrine.

Slap,

I understand. As you have pointed out things have been worse in our past. What I am pointing out are the parallels between that time and today.

[TheCurmudgeon]

I think there may be more to this story then meets the eye. A local talk show host Dan Morris,former official in the Reagan administration , reported that the head of the BLM was a former Campaign staffer for US Senator from Nevada Harry Reid. A strange left wing organization called the Center for Biological Diversity, may have been the organization that forced this situation to a head. This may be more about the radical ideaology and methods of our present administration and how they get past the rule of law. This may turn into another scandal for the administration and they surely don't need that.

Slap,

No offense, but I don't care what political agenda may have been behind the action. There were law enforcement officers from the BLM acting in accordance with a court order. The Rule of Law dicatates that, if you have a problem with a court order you appeal it, you don't surround the BLM officers with AR-15s.

[slapout9]

Slap,

No offense, but I don't care what political agenda may have been behind the action. There were law enforcement officers from the BLM acting in accordance with a court order. The Rule of Law dicatates that, if you have a problem with a court order you appeal it, you don't surround the BLM officers with AR-15s.

Curmudgy,
No offense taken. Discussion and disagreement with intelligent professionals is always good. My point is this was primarily a Civil Matter that is being escalated for Political reasons.

[davidbfpo]

Surely there are local criminal laws that apply to the man with an AR-15 and pistol, taking up position on a public road and appearing to be ready to shoot?

Elsewhere I have seen a man with what looked like a AK47.

[Stan]

Surely there are local criminal laws that apply to the man with an AR-15 and pistol, taking up position on a public road and appearing to be ready to shoot?

David, not on I-95 in the DC area

[TheCurmudgeon]

More from Social Media. Notice the less than subtle racial overtones indirectly attacking the President who is refered to as "Mr. Obama", not "President Obama". Divide and conquer.

[AmericanPride]

I think there may be more to this story then meets the eye. A local talk show host Dan Morris,former official in the Reagan administration , reported that the head of the BLM was a former Campaign staffer for US Senator from Nevada Harry Reid. A strange left wing organization called the Center for Biological Diversity, may have been the organization that forced this situation to a head. This may be more about the radical ideaology and methods of our present administration and how they get past the rule of law. This may turn into another scandal for the administration and they surely don't need that.

Slap, a couple of points: (1) this dispute is nothing special nor a depature from American tradition; (2) the Obama Administration probably could not care less about a single rancher's grazing rights after decades of violating federal law and ignoring court orders.

I've noted in previous posts the strong undercurrent of reactionary populism in American rural politics as well as the changing demographics of the country and the metropolitan "Otherness" of Obama personally and the federal government generally. This event highlights the collision of all of these moving pieces. Even George Washington suppressed challenges to federal authority.

I also highlighted your comment that really captures the mindset of the same people out there protesting the federal government's actions. Even though it's clearly documented that Bundy is the one with the radical ideology ("I don't even recognize the federal government", he says) and is the one attempting to subvert federal law, you still manage to find a way to build an explanation consistent with your ideological disposition. Obama is a pragmatist, for one, and his efforts are focused on the healthcare program and Russia; so I very much doubt he's at all concerned, aside from the publicity of the event now, with the seizure of cattle by BLM. The highest ranking political official to comment on the issue was Reid, one of the senators from Nevada; and he's not a part of the administration.

America is changing. And it's government and it's political priorities are changing to reflect that. That's not acceptable to people like Cliven Bundy and other anti-government radicals. In another post you cited the actions of communists and other left-wing radicals, but in American history, the greatest violence and subversion has consistently originated from rural right-wing political groups: the militia movement, the KKK, sovereign citizens, and so forth. The Tea Party is a legitimized wing of that movement and the Southwest is a tinderbox for a number of reasons. The real scandal is that the Republican Party allowed this faction to come to dictate its politics to the detriment of the GOP and the country.This rancher issue, and many of the other frivolous arguments of the Tea Party, is about one guy ignoring the law because of its inconveinence to him.

[AmericanPride]

Curmudgy,
Things have been a lot worse. During the early 70's the Anti War radicals used to bomb and break into National Guard Armories. This resulted in the CQ's at all the barracks of the 82nd Airborne Division being armed with .45 calibre side arms.We also had to check the arms room every 30 minutes and note it in our logs. Then when I seperated service and went into LE the underground began there campaign of shooting police officers and bombing government buildings. This is all standard Communist Revolutionary Warfare doctrine.

Yes, it has been a lot worse. In the post-Civil War era, the Ku Klux Klan, a powerful rural right-wing terrorist organization, killed hundreds (thousands?) of African-Americans who attempted to participate in the political process. They actively suppressed voting rights, access to education and the economy, and denied equal opportunity. They even ran elected officials out of their offices by gun point! The political influence of rural reactionary populism became so strong that, a hundred years later, FDR had to modify the Social Security program for the sole purpose of excluding as many African Americans as possible - otherwise, it wouldn't pass Congress. The federal government - not state and local governments, who actively and visibly opposed the policies - eventually intervened in order to ensure equal treatment for all citizens. And this was such a terrible event by a tyrannical federal government, you see, that many local municipalities closed their public school systems and set up segregation academies to avoid having their children attend schools with African-American children. Now that overt racism is no longer politically feasible, the descendents of this movement now resort to code words like "state's rights", "welfare queen", and so on.

So, you're right. It has been a lot worse. But it wasn't because of the communists, who never represented a credible threat to the United States or its citizens. And it has become better, but it wasn't because of state or local governments. America is changing and I suppose there are people out there who are stuck in the past.

[AmericanPride]

Save a Life, Kill A Cop



Just for historical note, the below flyers were floating around Dallas in November 1963. It is worth noting that appointing "Anti-Christian" judges is treason. I guess some things never change.


http://www.law.uga.edu/dwilkes_more/...blownaway.html

I like how the poster states "communist inspired racial riots". The ideological strand connected to today is so obvious. It reminds me of a quote by the People's Champion when asked why he wasn't going to Vietnam: "You my opposer when I want freedom. You my opposer when I want justice. You my opposer when I want equality. Want me to go somewhere and fight for you? You won't even stand up for me right here in America, for my rights and my religious beliefs. You won't even stand up for my right here at home."