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[graphei]

brushing up on some languages and I see all of this!

All of this talk of Christianity and cannibalism got me thinking. Have any of you ever read Smith's Jesus the Magician? For those not familiar, Smith's thesis was that Jesus was a black mage/con man/necromancer who studied in Egypt and picked up some bitchin' tattoos while he was there. All of his 'miracles' were not acts of God, but rather produced by Satan. The cult grew after his death and turned into what we have today. The book made a big splash in the day, but now it's read for entertainment, as a warning to undergrads of how not to do textual reconstruction, or as a Gospel among some of the tinfoil hat crowd.

Lagrange, I'm very interested in what you said about Taylor trying to be "African" and how such an identity was constructed using Hollywood/American stereotypes. For a long while, anything associated with African religion was thought to be one huge Satanic cult- witch doctors, cannibals- the whole 9 yards. I wonder how much of that mixed with some remnants of some gnostic groups that practiced such rituals is going on?

[marct]

Hey Graphei, that's what you get for taking a break !

All of this talk of Christianity and cannibalism got me thinking. Have any of you ever read Smith's Jesus the Magician? For those not familiar, Smith's thesis was that Jesus was a black mage/con man/necromancer who studied in Egypt and picked up some bitchin' tattoos while he was there. All of his 'miracles' were not acts of God, but rather produced by Satan. The cult grew after his death and turned into what we have today. The book made a big splash in the day, but now it's read for entertainment, as a warning to undergrads of how not to do textual reconstruction, or as a Gospel among some of the tinfoil hat crowd.

Yup, I read it. I think he read too much of the Gospel of Simon Magus !

For a long while, anything associated with African religion was thought to be one huge Satanic cult- witch doctors, cannibals- the whole 9 yards. I wonder how much of that mixed with some remnants of some gnostic groups that practiced such rituals is going on?

Gnostic groups practicing such rituals? None of the gnostic groups I know practice anything like that although, in all fairness, some of the Lodges I know of do. You're not thinking of the slander against the Valentinians, are you?

My gut guess, and I'm hoping that M-A knows enough to correct me, is that there is some weird form of double syncretism going on here. If we look at most of the syncretic religions that come out of the slave era - locumba, candolbe, vodoo, santeria, etc. - there is usually a fairly heavy emphasis on possession states as a key to power. On the "dark" side of them, this gets mixed in with a lot of 16th-17th century Catholic magic in its formal, aka ceremonial, form with, I'll admit, a really nasty set of add-ons tying in with blood magic. Totally different from anything gnostic .

[graphei]

I was taught to categorize any group as gnostic if they maintained that 'secret', esoteric knowledge outside of what was revealed would lead to salvation.

Regardless of their practices all gnostic groups presented a big problem for the early Church. One end of the gnostic spectrum incest, murder, cannibalism, bestiality, etc., was alleged, drawing the ire of the State and giving Christians a bad name. The more scholarly, philosophical bunch were quietly undermining the authority of the Church, adding to the problems the early Church fathers were having. I'm sure you can all figure out what happened next...

While groups like the Valintinians are gnostic poster children, there was definitely something else going on in the shadows that theologians and philosophers are loathe to talk about, but Classicists won't shut up about. It survives by mention in letters between Church fathers discussing the 'issues' and Roman officials gossiping. Most of the good evidence is held at the Sackler in Oxford under lock and key.

[marct]

Hi graphei,

I was taught to categorize any group as gnostic if they maintained that 'secret', esoteric knowledge outside of what was revealed would lead to salvation.

Hmmm, we might want to start trying to differentiate; the term can be used in so many ways. For example, using your definition, we could include certain factions in the CIA !

Regardless of their practices all gnostic groups presented a big problem for the early Church. One end of the gnostic spectrum incest, murder, cannibalism, bestiality, etc., was alleged, drawing the ire of the State and giving Christians a bad name. The more scholarly, philosophical bunch were quietly undermining the authority of the Church, adding to the problems the early Church fathers were having. I'm sure you can all figure out what happened next...

Hummph! Last frequency distribution spread I say for 50 - 150 ce had the Gnostics in the majority being attacked by a bunch of Plato loving fascists . Yeah, I've read a chunk of the allegations but they sound a little too Rush Limbaugh for me to credit. As for the scholarly bunch undermining the "authority of the Church"; good guys! Anyway, the modern, orthodox church doesn't come into being until Constantine creates his own with a healthy dose of Mithraism in it. This is what happens when you let bureaucrats run a religion....

While groups like the Valintinians are gnostic poster children, there was definitely something else going on in the shadows that theologians and philosophers are loathe to talk about, but Classicists won't shut up about. It survives by mention in letters between Church fathers discussing the 'issues' and Roman officials gossiping. Most of the good evidence is held at the Sackler in Oxford under lock and key.

I've seen some of the stuff but, again, it really doesn't hold that much validity for me since we see the same accusations showing up time and time again for a whole variety of groups. As for Valentinus, he always reminded me a bit of Anton Levay . As you say, the dangerous crowd were the ones in Alexandria (e.g. the Gospel of Mary group). Too bad they couldn't take down the fascists who leter grabbed control....

Cheers,

Marc

ps. If you happen to note a "slight" bias, that's because it's definitely there

[M-A Lagrange]

Graphei, Marct

I will try to respond but I am absolutly not a religion speciallist. My field being politic and conflict/humanitarism.

In Liberia, the main influences are the secret societies. You have 2 secret societies imaginaries/sincretism/paradigm that met/clash and finally mixed in Liberia.
1) the leopard secret societies. With all the initiation or the adolescent going in the bush for a month to be taught the secrets of the tribe and some being chosen to become sorcerer but also to be part of secret societies. Also, during that time the individuals are no more human and some may die, eaten by the Devil of the Bush. Do not know what it recovers in reality. Ellis assumption is that it is a ritual practice of cannibalism (they eat the dead bodies) controled by being done out of the humanity environment. (the Devil of the Bush and the Bush Schools).

2) the francmacon imported from the US.

I think that the 2 found a sort of negative match in each others as secret societies are not really secret in West Africa and the Francs macon neither in US. (It's completely different in Europe).

Concerning the Hollywood/Pulp influence. It's my personal impression and analyse of what I saw and heard when I was there.
The fighters were high and listening Reagge, watching Rambo and Schwarzeneger movies. For them there was no difference between their reallity and a movie. A movie was scenes and stories filmed live with real people.
One of the blockbuster of all times in Liberia was the snuff movie of Samuel Doe (the former dictator in the 80) tortured by Prince Johnson (A Taylor lieutnant). All filmed by a PLO cameraman... It's basically a remake "live" of Scarphace. All what they want are the Swiss Bank Accounts details.
On the other hand, Taylor is a pure product of USA. Ha has a MAB but was caught dealing drugs, freed by CIA, trained in Lybia...
The urban youth were dreaming of "Boys in the Hood". They were listening Gangsta rap... Compare to their daily struggle to survive, this was paradise.

Both sides did construct their imaginary on "made in USA" cheap cultural products.

M-A