About This Forum: Social Sciences, Moral and Religious

[M-A Lagrange]

It's Ellis theory on Liberia, not mine. But I must say that it fitted well in the paysage.

About the Christian symbolic, yes I agree. The Christian rite is symbolic canibalism. But what is really disturbing is to face people who really believe that they did a Christian act by eating human flesh and drinking human blood.
Even if you're not Christian.
Taking distance with the subject of study does not help much.

[marct]

Hi MA,

It's Ellis theory on Liberia, not mine. But I must say that it fitted well in the paysage.

Point taken and, yes, it does fit....

About the Christian symbolic, yes I agree. The Christian rite is symbolic canibalism. But what is really disturbing is to face people who really believe that they did a Christian act by eating human flesh and drinking human blood.
Even if you're not Christian.
Taking distance with the subject of study does not help much.

Those people who believe that they have committed a "Christian act" by doing so, they need to study their own religion. Unfortunately, that is unlikely to happen .

Most cultures have a really strong taboo against cannibalism, except in certain, extremely limited, circumstances. Being able to distance oneself somewhat does let you deal with that, at least analytically, and to try and figure out what the barriers are.

Once that barrier has been breached, there are some very interesting "opportunities" that develop. For instance, people who start using blood magic, which is what this appears to be, are extremely susceptible to certain types of symbolic attacks. They tend to become paranoid in the extreme and, at the same time, become wide open to being psychologically manipulated, especially if they are inverting a dominant symbol system. Of course, that assumes that the people opposing them a) know what they are doing symbolically, and b) are prepared to "go the distance" as it were.

Cheers,

Marc

[M-A Lagrange]

Once that barrier has been breached, there are some very interesting "opportunities" that develop. For instance, people who start using blood magic, which is what this appears to be, are extremely susceptible to certain types of symbolic attacks. They tend to become paranoid in the extreme and, at the same time, become wide open to being psychologically manipulated, especially if they are inverting a dominant symbol system. Of course, that assumes that the people opposing them a) know what they are doing symbolically, and b) are prepared to "go the distance" as it were.

Yes... Well... I did not try.

What really amazed me in Liberia, at the opposite, was the fact that by deregulating this, Taylor was able to completely disrupt the social tissue.
Before Taylor, many tribes in Liberia were considering that once you have made war, you earn social respect. Basically war was view as a social elevator. Cannibalism (as magic practice) as a political counter power.

After Taylor (and during Taylor for me), the populations in the village did not accept the atrocities done by the youth (Who were forced most of the time).
They went too far. And most of the ex fighters, even if they believe they did the right thing, still were unconfortable with what they did.
But transforming yourself into a ghost to kill the ennemies was completely accepted...

Uganda and Great Lakes, is another story.

[marct]

Hi M-A,

Yes... Well... I did not try.

LOL - I know - maybe, and it's a big maybe - half a dozen people who have the skill set and attitude necessary to do this. Trying to do something in this line without the skill set and attitude will just get you, and a lot of other people, killed in a really grizzly manner.

What really amazed me in Liberia, at the opposite, was the fact that by deregulating this, Taylor was able to completely disrupt the social tissue.
Before Taylor, many tribes in Liberia were considering that once you have made war, you earn social respect. Basically war was view as a social elevator. Cannibalism (as magic practice) as a political counter power.

I have to wonder why he did it. At a pure, gut level, guess - and please correct me if you know better! - I suspect he thought it was about on par with teenagers fooling around with Satanic rituals.

After Taylor (and during Taylor for me), the populations in the village did not accept the atrocities done by the youth (Who were forced most of the time).
They went too far. And most of the ex fighters, even if they believe they did the right thing, still were unconfortable with what they did.

Yeah, I've run across that one before. It's nasty as all get out and has repercussions for generations. There *might* be a couple of ways to get rid of some of the effects, but I don't know enough about the specifics in Liberia to come up with more than the base structure.

But transforming yourself into a ghost to kill the ennemies was completely accepted...

Sure, why not? Long history of that in Central / West Africa (and other areas, too).

Uganda and Great Lakes, is another story.

Oh, yeah....

Damn, this is getting depressing. I think I'd better turn up the volume on my mp3 player (currently playing Allegri's Miseri Mei).....

[M-A Lagrange]

marct:
I have to wonder why he did it. At a pure, gut level, guess - and please correct me if you know better! - I suspect he thought it was about on par with teenagers fooling around with Satanic rituals.

Do not forget that Liberia has a very particular history. It's the only African country colonized by Black people (may be Sierra Leone also).
What I did observe there was: the natives, the original people of Liberia, dreaming of America (more gangsta rap than anything else but still America). And the Congos, the descendants of slaves imported to Liberia as Freemen, dreaming of a savage Africa (like in Tarzan I would say).
So you have 2 groups who built their representation of the opponent culture on that imaginary model made of Hollywood movies and cheap pulps.

Personally, I believe that Taylor (he is a "Congo" educated in US) just wanted to be "African" and terrorizes his adversaries. He also completely felt into the wired Christian interpretation of cannibalism and the magic force that eating hearts, sex and leaver of his adversaries would give him.
But he also destroyed purposely sacred lands, exposed the ritual masks… I really believe that he was in a total American dream of savage Africa.

[graphei]

brushing up on some languages and I see all of this!

All of this talk of Christianity and cannibalism got me thinking. Have any of you ever read Smith's Jesus the Magician? For those not familiar, Smith's thesis was that Jesus was a black mage/con man/necromancer who studied in Egypt and picked up some bitchin' tattoos while he was there. All of his 'miracles' were not acts of God, but rather produced by Satan. The cult grew after his death and turned into what we have today. The book made a big splash in the day, but now it's read for entertainment, as a warning to undergrads of how not to do textual reconstruction, or as a Gospel among some of the tinfoil hat crowd.

Lagrange, I'm very interested in what you said about Taylor trying to be "African" and how such an identity was constructed using Hollywood/American stereotypes. For a long while, anything associated with African religion was thought to be one huge Satanic cult- witch doctors, cannibals- the whole 9 yards. I wonder how much of that mixed with some remnants of some gnostic groups that practiced such rituals is going on?

[marct]

Hey Graphei, that's what you get for taking a break !

All of this talk of Christianity and cannibalism got me thinking. Have any of you ever read Smith's Jesus the Magician? For those not familiar, Smith's thesis was that Jesus was a black mage/con man/necromancer who studied in Egypt and picked up some bitchin' tattoos while he was there. All of his 'miracles' were not acts of God, but rather produced by Satan. The cult grew after his death and turned into what we have today. The book made a big splash in the day, but now it's read for entertainment, as a warning to undergrads of how not to do textual reconstruction, or as a Gospel among some of the tinfoil hat crowd.

Yup, I read it. I think he read too much of the Gospel of Simon Magus !

For a long while, anything associated with African religion was thought to be one huge Satanic cult- witch doctors, cannibals- the whole 9 yards. I wonder how much of that mixed with some remnants of some gnostic groups that practiced such rituals is going on?

Gnostic groups practicing such rituals? None of the gnostic groups I know practice anything like that although, in all fairness, some of the Lodges I know of do. You're not thinking of the slander against the Valentinians, are you?

My gut guess, and I'm hoping that M-A knows enough to correct me, is that there is some weird form of double syncretism going on here. If we look at most of the syncretic religions that come out of the slave era - locumba, candolbe, vodoo, santeria, etc. - there is usually a fairly heavy emphasis on possession states as a key to power. On the "dark" side of them, this gets mixed in with a lot of 16th-17th century Catholic magic in its formal, aka ceremonial, form with, I'll admit, a really nasty set of add-ons tying in with blood magic. Totally different from anything gnostic .