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  1. #1
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    Default Iraqis: At Least 200 Insurgents Killed

    Something just doesn't add up. To mass Insurgents in Iraq on this scale would truely be a first. I don't think we are getting the full report yet unless the insurgency is beginning to matastisize. Insurgents operate on a very small scale relatively speaking. They lack the fire power, manning and training to engage in this type of large operation. In addition, the reports that women and children were present makes me question the validity and reliability of the story. Insurgents in Iraq are Men 18 - 40 years old. The story reminds me of my days in Bosnia when we received a report that there was a major riot in our sector. When we flushed the predator, we quickly learned that it was a broken down school bus and that the kids and community all came out to see what was happening. Time will tell but I suspect that there is more to this story than is being reported.

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    Council Member Culpeper's Avatar
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    It appears that these guys stood and fought. The result was the equivalent of a large company size element of the enemy being decimated. Who these people were is moot. They planned on murdering innocent people. They got what was coming to them. And I for one am glad to see it being reported. What's the matter? Some of you guys afraid the counterinsurgency did something right? We got to look for dead women and children first?

    Let's not forget that the insurgents have lost the valuable asset of just not losing to attain goals. They have to win now. Seems some people are still trying to find reasoning behind fanatics. They had a reason for occupying the ground. We may not understand it. But it wasn't our reason

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    Council Member jcustis's Avatar
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    Default Sistani as a target

    I'll sidetrack this a bit and pose a question. What if this band of merry men, whomever they were, did get to Sistani and his lieutenants, and killed them.

    What would happen if Sistani were to be martyred?

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    Council Member Culpeper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcustis View Post
    I'll sidetrack this a bit and pose a question. What if this band of merry men, whomever they were, did get to Sistani and his lieutenants, and killed them.

    What would happen if Sistani were to be martyred?
    Considering he may be the most influential person in post-invasion Iraq, I would dare to guess that it would have given those folks that don't know that an insurgency is a civil war, a pretty good idea of what a big civil war would be like. Sistani was very influential in the promoting of a fair election to create a new government in Iraq and has criticized the U.S.A. for not being democratic enough. So, to answer your question. The murder of Sistani and his lieutenants would have set off major chaos and human suffering yet seen in the region. And it would have been a major victory for the enemy.

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    Council Member jcustis's Avatar
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    My thoughts exactly Culpeper...

    A martyred Sistani would, in my view, unleash the wrath of Shi'a backlash that would certainly send the country into the abyss.
    -mine from another thread.

    We'd see internecine bloodshed on a staggering scale, unless we interposed ourselves between the two sides. Are we capable of doing that?

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    Default News links on battle...

    I've been posting updates on the SWJ Daily News Links page - here. There are several blog links towards the bottom - more of both in the morning.

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    Council Member tequila's Avatar
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    Culpeper,

    I have no problem seeing bad guys getting theirs. I do have an issue with relying solely on Iraqi government officials for sourcing, especially since this particular government is under the control of SCIRI, who are allied quite openly with Iran --- not our friends, in other words.

    Two brave American pilots died in this particular action. I'd like it if they died killing enemies of our country, not fighting one Shia faction's battle against another Shia faction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tequila View Post
    Culpeper,

    I have no problem seeing bad guys getting theirs. I do have an issue with relying solely on Iraqi government officials for sourcing, especially since this particular government is under the control of SCIRI, who are allied quite openly with Iran --- not our friends, in other words.
    He has a good question...

    "What would happen if Sistani were to be martyred?"

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    Council Member Culpeper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tequila View Post
    Culpeper,



    Two brave American pilots died in this particular action. I'd like it if they died killing enemies of our country, not fighting one Shia faction's battle against another Shia faction.
    We're fighting a counterinsurgency war. It is an unconventional war. Not a conventional war. Your Commander-in-Chief has made it very clear any foe set on harming our troops or attacking innocent Iraqi people will pay firmly. This isn't Guadalcanal. Not in intensity. Not in tactics. Not in strategy. The goal of this group of enemy was to create such a level of chaos that the counterinsurgency would not be able to recover. The Americans KIA were fighting the correct enemy and not an enemy of personal convenience. And that is a fact.
    Last edited by Culpeper; 01-30-2007 at 02:06 AM.

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    Council Member Uboat509's Avatar
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    I'm going to have to reserve judgment on this one. Had it been us that had killed 200 bad guys I would have been the first one to to say "F*** yeah! We got them!" But since it was a force that has questionable loyalties to say the least I maintain that something about this thing doesn't smell right. Particularly now that Iran appears to be more directly active in Iraq. I want to hear what happened from a CF source not a SCIRI mouthpiece. Maybe I am too cynical.

    SFC W

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    Council Member tequila's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Culpeper View Post
    The Americans KIA were fighting the correct enemy and not an enemy of personal convenience. And that is a fact.
    I have no idea how you have arrived at this level of certainty. Is it blind faith or do you have alternate sources of information?

    Zeyad at Healing Iraq has some good stuff on all the different versions of the Najaf battle floating around in Iraq right now, including vastly contradictory claims by different Iraqi government officials:

    The Sadrist account: Nahrain Net, a Sadrist website, quotes anonymous sources from the Hawza and security officials in Najaf that an armed group named “Jund Al-Samaa’” (the Army of Heaven, the Soldiers of Heaven, the Soldiers of the Skies) were amassing in palm groves at Zarga, north of Kufa, and that they were plotting to take supreme Shi’ite clerics in Najaf, including Sistani, Ishaq Al-Fayyadh, Ya’qubi, Mohammed Al-Hakim, and Muqtada Al-Sadr, as hostages in order to use as a bargain to control the shrine of Imam Ali in Najaf. Allegedly, a list was found with the group that contained names of senior clerics in Najaf and Karbala, and that Muqtada was number two on the list after Sistani. They added that the group was coordinating with Ba’athists and Al-Qaeda and that they have received logistic and monetary backing from Saudi Arabia.

    ...

    Ahmed Du’aibil, Media Spokesman of the Najaf Governorate (SCIRI): 250 – 300 militants were killed in the clashes at Zarga. “16 terrorists” were detained, including two Egyptians and a Saudi.

    The Iraqi News Agency quotes an unnamed Iraqi security source that the group’s leader is Ahmed Kadhim Al-Gar’awi Al-Basri (Ahmed Hassan Al-Basri), born 1969, and was a Hawza student of Sayyid Mohammed Sadiq Al-Sadr (Muqtada’s father) in Najaf. He left to Iran right before the war and declared himself the vanguard of Imam Al-Mahdi, leading to his imprisonment by Iranian authorities for heresy. He was released and returned to Iraq after the war and he started preaching in Basrah, where he also put under house arrest by Iraqi authorities. His schools and husseiniyas in major cities in the south were closed and vandalised by Iraqi security forces and the Scorpion Brigade of the Interior Ministry Commandos detained several of his followers in Najaf last week. The source added that 140 militants were captured in the clashes yesterday.

    SCIRI’s Buratha News Agency quotes a source in the Dhu Al-Fiqar Brigade, which fought the militants yesterday, saying over 1,000 “terrorists” were killed and 50 detained, with 200 “brainwashed women and children.” He added that the area was full of corpses and a large amount of ammunition and weapons was confiscated.

    Deputy Governor of Najaf Abdul Hussein Abtan (SCIRI), as quoted on Al-Iraqiya TV: “Hundreds of terrorists have been killed, and hundreds detained. Their brainwashed families were also at the location and we are moving them to another place and clearing the killed and prisoners to complete investigations. Our information indicates that foreign groups funded this operation, but they used false slogans and recruited naive people in order to destroy holy Najaf and to kill the great clerics as a starting point and then to move to control other governorates. That is what their slain leader, who called himself the Imam Al-Mahdi, told them.” The deputy governor first said the group’s leader was a Lebanese national, but later he identified him as Dhiaa’ Abdul Zahra Kadhim, from Hilla. It seems there were no journalists to point out this contradiction to him in the room when he made this statement.

    Najaf Governor As’ad Abu Gilel (SCIRI): The group was led by a man named Ali bin Ali bin Abi Talib. Their planned attack was meant to destroy the Shiite community, kill the grand ayatollahs, destroy the convoys and occupy the holy shrine. He identified the group as “Shi’ite in its exterior, but not in its core.”

    Another unnamed captain in the Iraqi Army, quoted by Buratha News Agency: “The leader who was killed claimed he was the Mahdi. He is in his forties and is from Diwaniya. Many Arab fighters were captured including Lebanese, Egyptians and Sudanese.”

    Major General Othman Al-Ghanimi, Iraqi commander in charge of Najaf quoted by AP: Members of the group, including women and children, planned to disguise themselves as pilgrims and kill as many leading clerics as possible. The group’s leader, wearing jeans, a coat and a hat and carrying two pistols was among those who were killed in the battle. Saddam’s Al-Quds Army, a people’s militia established in the late 1990s, once used the same area where the group was based.

    Ahmed Al-Fatlawi (SCIRI), member of Najaf Governorate Council, quoted by AP: "We have information from our intelligence sources that indicated the leader of this group had links with the former regime elements since 1993. Some of the gunmen brought their families with them in order to make it easier to enter the city. The women have been detained.”

    Colonel Ali Jiraiw, spokesman for the Najaf police, quoted by the Guardian: “The group which calls itself Army of Heaven had established itself two years ago in farms near Kufa. But it ran into trouble with the Jaish al-Mahdi militia loyal to Shia cleric Muqtada Al-Sadr, who has a base in Kufa and who regards the group as heretical. The group is led by Sheikh Ahmed Hassan Al-Yamani, and its followers believe in the imminent return of the Mahdi, a messiah-like figure whose coming heralds the dawn of a kingdom of peace and justice."

    So let me get this straight. The Iraqi officials can't agree on who they were fighting or who their leader was, so how did they figure out all these colourful details about "brainwashed women and children" and the intentions of killing all clerics or bombing the shrine or taking over the shrine, etc.?

    Also, alleged eyewitnesses said they saw fighters in "Afghan robes." What is an Afghan robe, anyway? I doubt someone from Kufa would know an Afghan robe when they see it. Also, why doesn't the government produce the evidence that foreign fighters have been captured?
    Last edited by tequila; 01-30-2007 at 04:38 PM.

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    Default Interesting to learn more on this operation

    It is interesting to learn that these were not insurgents but more, a religious cult. The insurgency paradigm and their TTPs have not changed--local engagements--within km of their home, small scale, tactical in nature.

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    Council Member Culpeper's Avatar
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    I think the term, "cult" is moot.

    Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law - Cite This Source


    Main Entry: insurgent
    Function: adjective
    : rising in opposition to civil or political authority or against an established government
    Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law, © 1996 Merriam-Webster, Inc.


    noun
    1. a person who takes part in an armed rebellion against the constituted authority (especially in the hope of improving [their] conditions)
    2. a member of an irregular armed force that fights a stronger force by sabotage and harassment [syn: guerrilla]

    WordNet® 2.1, © 2005 Princeton University
    These guys were well armed insurgents. Who cares what their wardrobe looked like, what sect they worshiped, or if they used western brand toilet paper. They were well armed, had an entrenched base of operation, and were bent on armed rebellion using guerrilla tactics as their ultimate goal. And the counterinsurgency kicked their butts. Classic counterinsurgency doctrine. Period. Take it or leave it.
    Last edited by Culpeper; 01-31-2007 at 01:44 AM.

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    Default 250 Insurgents Dead

    Who these people were is moot. What's the matter? Some of you guys afraid the counterinsurgency did something right?
    I am not afraid that counterinsurgency warfare did something right, I am concerned that what we are seeing is no longer an insurgency. That it is changing right before our eyes. It may be becoming a full blown civil war. The TTPs of insurgents are not about large scale engagements--it just doesn't fit their MO. What may be happening is much different than a simple insurgency and our tactics and warfare will have to change accordingly.

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    Default Welcome and a H/T...

    H/T to The Belmont Club for linking to this thread and a welcome to Belmont readers. From that post:

    ... Whatever organization these individuals belong to, they had serious firepower, as evidenced by the cell phone video and their ability to down a US helicopter. Their religious identity remains mysterious, what with the Afghan robes and reports that it was headed by the "Madhi". But bizarre events do happen in the Third World. It is not wholly impossible for a cult leader to assemble a group of people to engage in improbable behavior, whether it involves the Branch Davidian or the now-forgotten Lapiang Malaya. This article from Time Magazine in1967 describes that strange incident...
    More at the link...

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