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Thread: Nineteen years after; is this a "moderate" Muslim?

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    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
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    Default Nineteen years after; is this a "moderate" Muslim?

    Last week we briefly considered what a "moderate" Muslim was, on the current Iraq thread (Posts 506, 509, 512 & 515). I fully recognise anti-jiahdists voices seldom get MSM coverage, those that do are often labelled by their enemies as "sell outs" etc.

    Today I was reminded is the Srebrenica massacre happened in Bosnia, when Serbian forces captured a UN 'safe area'; a matter debated elsewhere on SWC IIRC, mainly in 2013 on:http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/...ad.php?t=18969

    As the Srebrenica Memorial Day anniversary on the 11th of July approaches its 18th year, we are once again reminded of the lengths that man could potentially go to when immersed in a state of fear, hatred and division. The Memorial Day puts to rest any naivety that the lessons of the past have not only been learned, but well and truly headed. Not only are human beings chronically capable of committing the most repugnant of acts against fellow human beings, regardless of the advancement of time, the catalysts for these crimes are invariably similar whatever the different and unique circumstances of each.
    The Srebrenica Memorial Day provides a timely reminder to us all of the challenges that can only be met in a sense of togetherness and community.
    The Memorial Day puts to rest any naivety that the lessons of the past have not only been learned, but well and truly headed. Not only are human beings chronically capable of committing the most repugnant of acts against fellow human beings, regardless of the advancement of time, the catalysts for these crimes are invariably similar whatever the different and unique circumstances of each.
    The Cordoba Foundation has been working tirelessly to raise awareness of the threat man poses against his fellow man, should particular conditions become established on the ground. Whether Srebrenica, Auswitz, Rwanda, Gaza, Kashmir, Myanmar or Somalia, and whether in the last century, this or the one coming, injustice establishes fear which breads suspicion and ultimately hatred. From there, the move on to violence is neither a difficult nor inconceivable step to undertake. Our objective is to work in common collaboration to remove the very initial elements on that tragic path, and to counter the root causes for clashes based on false and misguided understanding and implementation of the concepts of ‘self’ and ‘the other’.
    There's also a link to a sermon by the Grand Mufti of Bosnia-Herzogovina:http://www.thecordobafoundation.com/...mon%202014.pdf

    This I thought was powerful:
    I call upon the people of Bosnia and Herzegovina to reject the glorification of criminals and denial of crimes. That will bring them neither good nor fortune.
    I am aware the Cordoba Foundation is regarded by many as a Muslim Brotherhood affiliated group.
    Last edited by davidbfpo; 07-11-2014 at 05:51 PM.
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    Default UK imams condemn Isis in online video

    BBC News report:
    Leading UK-based Shia and Sunni imams and clerics have filmed a video message urging young British Muslims against fighting in Iraq and Syria. They say their film is designed to be distributed online and via social media to counter "digital propaganda" put out by Isis and other extremist groups
    Link to story:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28270296 and the message:http://imamsonline.com/blog/2014/07/...itment-videos/
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    Default TED: When people of Muslim heritage challenge fundamentalism

    A twenty minute TED talk, March 2014:
    Karima Bennoune shares four powerful stories of real people fighting against fundamentalism in their own communities — refusing to allow the faith they love to become a tool for crime, attacks and murder. These personal stories humanize one of the most overlooked human-rights struggles in the world.
    Link:http://www.ted.com/talks/karima_benn...make_headlines

    She is an Arab-American, of Algerian heritage and now a university law professor; her bio:http://www.karimabennoune.com/about-karima/
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    Council Member carl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidbfpo View Post
    A twenty minute TED talk, March 2014:

    Link:http://www.ted.com/talks/karima_benn...make_headlines

    She is an Arab-American, of Algerian heritage and now a university law professor; her bio:http://www.karimabennoune.com/about-karima/
    People like Ms. Bennoune and those she describes and writes about are the most important people in the world when it comes to combating the takfiri killers. Probably more important than the spec-ops super soldiers, the intelligence community upon which we spend so much and all the Preds, Reapers and carrier battle groups that sail the seas and the skies. We must find a way to support them if we can if only by acknowledging their existence and importance.

    At the same time, as the experience of Algeria seems to demonstrate, those people have to be protected and I suppose that is where the force comes in. I don't think the one can prevail without the other but we need to see that without the kinds of people Ms. Bennoune describes, the force means nothing.

    This brings to my mind once more the importance of the war in Algeria in the 90s. We must learn in detail about that war and how it was conducted.
    "We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene

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    This was circulated on Twitter AM today by the Quilliam Foundation (a counter-extremism think tank in London) and is on the front page of The Sunday Times here (behind a pay wall). I am uncertain whether it is a Fatwa for Imans to use or solely the work of Quilliam. One Tweet refers to Sunni Imans in London signing.
    Link to the 'Fatwa':https://twitter.com/Charles_Lister/s...626240/photo/1
    Last edited by davidbfpo; 08-31-2014 at 12:39 PM.
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    Default ISIS Isn’t the Real Enemy. The “Game of Thrones” Medieval Mindset That Birthed It Is.

    Very interesting perspective on ISIS and the shaping of the Muslim mind.

    The Six “Fathers” of ISIS

    “ISIS is the offspring of more than one father, and the product of more than one longstanding and widespread sickness.”
    1. “ISIS is first the child of despotism in the most heinous form that has plagued the region.”
    2. “ISIS is second the progeny of the American invasion of Iraq in 2003, both the way in which it was initially conducted and the catastrophic mismanagement that followed.”
    3. “ISIS is third the son of Iranian aggressive regional policies that have worsened in recent years.”
    4. “ISIS is fourth the child of some of the Salafist networks in the Gulf (in Saudi Arabia and other states).”
    5. “ISIS is fifth the offspring of a profound crisis, deeply rooted in the thinking of some Islamist groups seeking to escape from their terrible failure to confront the challenges of the present toward a delusional model ostensibly taken from the seventh century, believing that they have found within its imaginary folds the answer to all contemporary or future questions.” <- Read this one again.
    6. “ISIS is sixth the progeny of violence or of an environment that has been subjected to striking brutality.”
    https://medium.com/@AmirAhmadNasr/is...s-4888330dabac

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    Council Member carl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidbfpo View Post


    This was circulated on Twitter AM today by the Quilliam Foundation (a counter-extremism think tank in London) and is on the front page of The Sunday Times here (behind a pay wall). I am uncertain whether it is a Fatwa for Imans to use or solely the work of Quilliam. One Tweet refers to Sunni Imans in London signing.
    Link to the 'Fatwa':https://twitter.com/Charles_Lister/s...626240/photo/1
    This is, in my opinion, a hugely important thing. This is the kind of thing that will ultimately defeat the takfiri killers, breaking their theological underpinnings.

    Theologically important people in Cairo must come out with the same kind of thing.
    "We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene

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    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carl View Post
    This is, in my opinion, a hugely important thing. This is the kind of thing that will ultimately defeat the takfiri killers, breaking their theological underpinnings.

    Theologically important people in Cairo must come out with the same kind of thing.
    Carl,

    This week I spotted incomplete reports that two senior clerics had condemned ISIS, one from Saudi Arabia - at the King's behest - and the other from Cairo.
    davidbfpo

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    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
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    Hat tip to a "lurker" for this NPR report 'Prominent Muslim Sheikh Issues Fatwa Against ISIS Violence':http://www.npr.org/2014/09/25/351277...iolence?live=1

    First time recently I've seen a non-Muslim comment like this:
    He's providing a counter-example to all this violent extremism. He's providing the counter-narrative. It's not a cure-all pill. It won't stop everything, we know that, but without it, where are we?
    Then an academic on Islam:
    What it will do is give those who might otherwise sit this out an argument, something to think about. It shows that the things that ISIS does, its objectives, the methods it uses, have no basis in classical Islamic jurisprudence and teaching.
    davidbfpo

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    I think all this will change (with "crisis" along the way), but for now, this is pretty accurate

    http://hurryupharry.org/2013/10/31/t...oderate-islam/

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidbfpo View Post


    This was circulated on Twitter AM today by the Quilliam Foundation (a counter-extremism think tank in London) and is on the front page of The Sunday Times here (behind a pay wall). I am uncertain whether it is a Fatwa for Imans to use or solely the work of Quilliam. One Tweet refers to Sunni Imans in London signing.
    Link to the 'Fatwa':https://twitter.com/Charles_Lister/s...626240/photo/1
    Ah yes, to the uninitiated this looks all peace and flowers and happy, happy, joy, joy. To those familiar with Islamic theology and law the key passages/sections (and the most telling) are nos. 3 and 7.

    The key words are "covenants" (para.3) and "treaty" (para.7). Understanding what these terms and their usage means in Islam (and more importantly in terms of Prophetic sunna) results in a very different interpretation (along the lines of, "we're accomplishing our goals so don't rock the boat"; a difference of opinion of how Islamic revolution is to be undertaken; peacefully through subversion of host nation laws (lawfare) or violently; the goal is identical).

    As for Quillam, excuse me while throw up... they are masters of "lawfare", "taqqiya" (which, as can be seen from the above quote seems to have been successful) and "legal revolution".

    Just had to post this (the level of discourse on SWC has really gone downhill).

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    Default Credible messages?

    Tukhachevskii's response to the published 'Fatwa'
    Ah yes, to the uninitiated this looks all peace and flowers and happy, happy, joy, joy. To those familiar with Islamic theology and law the key passages/sections (and the most telling) are nos. 3 and 7.

    The key words are "covenants" (para.3) and "treaty" (para.7). Understanding what these terms and their usage means in Islam (and more importantly in terms of Prophetic sunna) results in a very different interpretation (along the lines of, "we're accomplishing our goals so don't rock the boat"; a difference of opinion of how Islamic revolution is to be undertaken; peacefully through subversion of host nation laws (lawfare) or violently; the goal is identical).

    As for Quillam, excuse me while throw up... they are masters of "lawfare", "taqqiya" (which, as can be seen from the above quote seems to have been successful) and "legal revolution".
    As I have posted repeatedly the lack of a known counter-Jihadist narrative or message and its widespread circulation is a critical weakness in virtually all 'Western' responses - whether counter-terrorst or counter-radical.

    I have noted since Mosul a number of efforts to provide a narrative by Muslims, the posted 'fatwa' is an example. Some are more credible than others, although critics usually refer to the megaphone not the messsage (and I note Omarali50's link too).

    In my experience, which is very limited and principally to a small part of a British city, there is already a narrative which supplements individual and group decisions not to support the violent Jihad. As a regular poster remarked long ago "There are a lot of people out there are angry, thankfully very few are motivated to do anything".

    Muslims whether they are clerics or others who "stand up" publicly in my opinion reinforce individual and group decisions should be welcomed, maybe sometimes critically. One thing is certain an official narrative here in the UK has very little impact on Muslims and if it is aimed at other communities is ineffective.

    Now to your last line:
    Just had to post this (the level of discourse on SWC has really gone downhill).
    The level of discourse depends on members participation and occassionally moderation.
    davidbfpo

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    A long Huffington Post article 'An Open Letter to Moderate Muslims' and note he dismisses 'moderate':
    The word "moderate" has lost its credibility. Fareed Zakaria has referred to Middle Eastern moderates as a "fantasy." Even apologists like Nathan Lean are pointing out that the use of this word isn't helping anyone.
    I shall let the Bible readers ponder this passage:
    How, then, to respond?For starters, it might help to read not only the Quran, but the other Abrahamic texts. When you do, you'll see that the Old Testament has just as much violence, if not more, than the Quran. Stoning blasphemers, stoning fornicators, killing homosexuals -- it's all in there. When you get about ten verses deep into Deuteronomy 20, you may even swear you're reading a rulebook for ISIS.

    Link:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-...b_5930764.html
    davidbfpo

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    In an article on counter-radicalisation there is this robust public statement (slightly edited):
    The Muslim mayor of Rotterdam made a bold, blunt statement in the immediate aftermath of the Charlie Hebdo attack in Paris: If you don’t like freedom, for the love of God, pack you bags and leave. Maybe there is a place in this world where you do fit it. Be honest with yourself and don’t start killing innocent journalists....Disappear if you can’t find your place in The Netherlands. If you don’t like it here because you don’t like satirists who make a newspaper … piss off.
    Link:http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...es-jihad.html?
    davidbfpo

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    An interesting paragraph in an over all interesting article:
    The appearance of the Islamic State as a major force in Iraq and Syria, with threats of terrorist attacks on the West, has concentrated minds again to a degree. But unwillingness to ask difficult questions persists in many quarters. Despite the fact that we have more than circumstantial evidence that the Islamic State is being manipulated by Syrian intelligence, and Iran’s too, these notions are dismissed out of hand by too many Westerners who study terrorism. Yet if we want to defeat the Islamic State, it would be wise to actually understand it. That Washington, DC, continues its bipartisan blocking of release of the full 9/11 Commission Report, which includes troubling details of Saudi misconduct regarding Al-Qa’ida, is not an encouraging sign.
    http://20committee.com/2014/09/25/wh...rism-is-wrong/
    Last edited by davidbfpo; 01-13-2015 at 05:27 PM. Reason: fix link

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    Default The British Muslims not afraid to fight extremism

    Earlier this week John Ware, one of the BBC's intrepid documentary makers had a BBC Panorama programme 'After Paris - The Battle for British Islam' and today an article, as per the title:http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...m-9985531.html

    A taster and even more relevant after Paris, even if teh UK is very different from France:
    Although some recent surveys have found that Muslims identify more strongly with Britain and its democratic institutions than the general public, they may mask some uncomfortable truths. “We need to drill down into what that actually means,” says Dilwar Hussain. Might respect for democracy actually mean gratitude for the hands-off multicultural tolerance that encouraged a very conservative version of Islam or marriage with your first cousin? “We’ve avoided these sort of questions in the past because they are all too difficult.”

    Other surveys show that overall residential diversity in Britain is growing but, again, this brighter picture may not be matched by the reality on the ground. The Social Integration Commission has found poor social integration in some highly diverse areas, suggesting that residential integration doesn’t necessarily translate to meaningful social interaction.
    The half hour documentary is available on IPlayer:http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode...-british-islam
    davidbfpo

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    Quote Originally Posted by KingJaja View Post
    Very interesting perspective on ISIS and the shaping of the Muslim mind.



    https://medium.com/@AmirAhmadNasr/is...s-4888330dabac
    Bad day 4 IRGC / MT @sheeraf IDF strike bigger than originally thought. Now confirmed several Iranian commanders killed alongside Mughniyeh.

    Defense Min. Yaalon won't comment on strike but adds cryptically in radio interview "#Hezbollah should explain what it's doing in #Syria"

    Senior Israeli military official says if Hezbollah responds to todays strikes with rockets, there will be a "very heavy response."

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