Islam, Catholisism, religion, and conflict

[J Singh]

Ok, for all of you who are convinced they fight because of their religious differences rather than in pursuit of power or to throw off a system of governance designed and implemented by one group to oppress the other, riddle me this:

Why is it that people of these same diverse religions live together in natural harmony when these inequities of illegitimacy, power and opportunity are resolved??

One would need an example of where that which is described in the question, actually exists, in order to consider a response to it.

[Bob's World]

Seriously?

How about Catholics and Protestants virtually every where?

[carl]

Seriously?

How about Catholics and Protestants virtually every where?

Virtually everywhere...?

RCs and the Prods settled that thing a long time ago and when they did, the settlement was largely preserved I think because of western cultural environment, which of course was influenced by the nature of the religion itself along with the Enlightenment and all that. Slaughtering Episcopalians just isn't done. Unless that Episcopalian wanders into Raqqa where he will have to flee, convert, dhimmi or die.

I'll riddle something back. Suppose IS achieves the supremacy they dream of and establish an unchallenged caliphate that runs from the Atlantic coast to Indian Ocean, north and south as far as your imagination lets them go; do you think they will allow freedom of worship? How long do you figure it will take?

[J Singh]

Seriously?

Yes, seriously.

Why is it that people of these same diverse religions live together in natural harmony when these inequities of illegitimacy, power and opportunity are resolved??

Diverse religions or sects of the same religion?
Natural harmony is a term begging for a propounded definition.
The emphasized text does not comport with any geopolitical region of which one is aware.

How about Catholics and Protestants virtually every where?

Both have been subsumed, generally, by Western secularism following a long and oft bloody struggle between the partisans (going back to the issue of the Western sociohistorical experience). Of course, "virtually everywhere" still has its flash points.

More than 700 mainly young Protestant men have been convicted of rioting in protests linked to parades and the union jack dispute in Belfast, it has emerged. The news came ahead of a potentially violent standoff involving Ulster loyalists and a banned Orange Order march in Belfast. As loyalists were preparing to light their bonfires on the eve of the 12 July – the climax of the marching season – Northern Ireland's justice minister, David Ford, told the Guardian that he was concerned that more and more young Protestants were joining the ranks of those already convicted of public order offences.

[jcustis]

I see where COL Jones is going with his point, and it is very valid on many angles.

The Protestant-Catholic dramas of Northern Ireland were not about the raw differences between the two sects of Christianity, but rather the privileges and benefits afforded those who were from a particular sect. Definitely inequalities of legitimacy, power and opportunity unresolved.

[Bob's World]

We are too quick to focus on the sizzle, rather than the steak.

"The sizzle" is those distinguishing factors, be it shared grievance (powerless peasants vs entitled landholders in Asia and virtually every place colonized by Spain); or some characteristic such as race, tribe or sect that has served to determine who is in power and who is out of power.

"The Steak" is the real issue: Governance and Power. When governance is not equitable and when no effective legal means within the context of the culture of the people involved exists to address inequities, or illegitimacies, or flat out abuses of power - Revolutionary energy will build and teams will form along the lines that divide the issue.

Power. When such conditions exist all manner of opportunists will arise to exploit that popular energy to coerce change upon the offending system of governance. Sometimes these are honorable leaders who represent the greater interests of the people. Washington, Ghandi, King to name three. Usually these are individuals and organizations who are either self-serving or seek to advance some darker purpose. If you build it, they will come. Governance builds these conditions, and they always come eventually. They always come.

And governance (and many of those paid experts who advise governance) almost always blames it on the sizzle. This is why so many Kings who ignore these conditions end up with their heads in baskets or on pikes. This is also why these conditions of instability tend to keep coming back even when some insurgent is "defeated." The insurgent is not the insurgency.

[carl]

We are too quick to focus on the sizzle, rather than the steak.

"The sizzle" is those distinguishing factors, be it shared grievance (powerless peasants vs entitled landholders in Asia and virtually every place colonized by Spain); or some characteristic such as race, tribe or sect that has served to determine who is in power and who is out of power.

"The Steak" is the real issue: Governance and Power. When governance is not equitable and when no effective legal means within the context of the culture of the people involved exists to address inequities, or illegitimacies, or flat out abuses of power - Revolutionary energy will build and teams will form along the lines that divide the issue.

Power. When such conditions exist all manner of opportunists will arise to exploit that popular energy to coerce change upon the offending system of governance. Sometimes these are honorable leaders who represent the greater interests of the people. Washington, Ghandi, King to name three. Usually these are individuals and organizations who are either self-serving or seek to advance some darker purpose. If you build it, they will come. Governance builds these conditions, and they always come eventually. They always come.

And governance (and many of those paid experts who advise governance) almost always blames it on the sizzle. This is why so many Kings who ignore these conditions end up with their heads in baskets or on pikes. This is also why these conditions of instability tend to keep coming back even when some insurgent is "defeated." The insurgent is not the insurgency.

All well and good but if you are unfortunate enough to be under the IS and you are a Christian, a Hindu, a Buddhist, a Zoroastrian, a Sikh, a Wiccan or any sort of disapproved of variety of Muslim you have a choice of flee, convert, dhimmi or die.

That's religion.

[slapout9]

The Irish situation is almost a classic situation on how you will have to handle this type of religious war because BOTH sides are claiming the MORAL right to rule....thye fight to establish legitmacy first before all else. Just like Islam! Allah is everything and Allah is always first until that happens nothing else matters.

That is why the 4GW have it right when they say we need to change how we think about these things by using the 3 filters of a Moral level,a Mental level,and Physical level of war before we even get started.

Islam does this very well which is why they are so hard to beat. They establish Moral authority then move to Sharia law and then decide on physical challenges. It is an integrated system which makes them very tough!

Much of our college boy intellectual leadership isn't even capable of this kind of thinking. Compared to our leadership during the Barbary wars who were very well educated, yet most did not even have what by todays standard would be a high school education,but they had learned to think in principles and think through situations very well.

[Bob's World]

All well and good but if you are unfortunate enough to be under the IS and you are a Christian, a Hindu, a Buddhist, a Zoroastrian, a Sikh, a Wiccan or any sort of disapproved of variety of Muslim you have a choice of flee, convert, dhimmi or die.

That's religion.

No, that is human nature.

Try being a white settler in Comanche territory in the 1800s; or a black person in white territory in the same period; or an accountant at a biker bar. There are many ways one can be the wrong flavor in the wrong place at the wrong time. Religion is only one of those ways. But it is a way widely leveraged by systems of governance, and it is therefore a way widely leveraged to challenge governance.

ISIS may well be the initial organization in charge of an emergent Sunni state in modern Syria and Iraq - but either they will mellow in time, or they will be replaced by voices that speak more for what the people of that region want going forward, rather than for what they are currently against.