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Thread: Shot down over the Ukraine: MH17

  1. #41
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    hello comrade Russian expert well maybe no longer a Russian expert mirhond--

    Obama has formerly stated the airliner was deliberately down by a missile--all assumptions are especially after the voice intercepts which are accurate as I am assuming the NSA listened as well.

    so are you ready for the next round or sectorial sanctions--especially on Gazpom?

    mirhond---you guys really blew this one did you not? so killing 23 Americans and countless Dutch and 15 other nationalities-- over 295 blown out of the sky including children is what justified in the creation of the New Russia?

    well at least you got at least 60% correct in your comments.
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 07-17-2014 at 11:02 PM.

  2. #42
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    comrade mirhond---you lied the 60% is now over 200%--the US is indicating that they have radar emission intercepts clearly showing the BUK being under rebel control inside rebel territory.

    so now mirhond---are you finally ready to state you are a FSB officer.

  3. #43
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    I seems that Putin feels he and his actions have no responsibility in the shot down---it is the other guy's fault not me attitude.

    It was a supposedly "enhanced secure border" that all those Russian mercenaries seem to come through which is in fact Putin's responsibility since he gave orders to close the border---or maybe he did not really give the orders.

    Dear colleagues!

    You know that a terrible event occurred today in the sky over Ukraine, an awful tragedy -- a civilian plane was killed, 285 people, according to preliminary information, were killed.

    On behalf of the Russian leadership and the Russian government, we express condolences to the bereaved families, the governments of those countries whose nationals were on that plane. I ask you to honor their memory.

    (A moment of silence)

    In this regard, I want to note that this tragedy would not have happened if there were peace on this land, if the military actions had not been renewed in southeast Ukraine. And, certainly, the state over whose territory this occurred bears responsibility for this awful tragedy.

    I have already given instructions to the military departments to provide all necessary assistance in the investigation of this crime. And I also ask the government of the Russian Federation through the available civilian agencies that have the capability to do everything for a thorough investigation of this event. We will do everything -- everything that depends on us, anyway -- in order that the objective picture of what happened is part of the public domain here, in Ukraine and in the rest of the world. This is an absolutely unacceptable thing, and no one has the right to let this pass without the appropriate conclusions and without all of us having objective information about the incident.

  4. #44
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    Interesting is that the mercenaries in their intercepted cell calls seemed to assume that there should have been no aircraft over their area.

    Both Air Traffic Control Centers Kyiv and Rostov were still taking flights through the area--but Russia via Rostov signaled a closed area starting actually today.

    Then this appeared via Interfax yesterday evening which seems to confirm that they rebels had been informed of the air space closure which did not occur.

    So the question begs to be asked just how close is the Russian government working together with the mercenaries and did someone really make a serious mistake and or knew the airliner was coming through?

    Interfax:
    21:09 Area above forceful operation in Ukraine closed for flights three days ago - Rosaviatsia source

    Seriously doubt that both ATCs did not know anything about a "supposed" air space closure.

  5. #45
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    Let's count the different Russian arguments coming out of Moscow in their attempt to push the shot down onto the Ukraine and shove it away from Russia and Putin.

    But first was it not Putin who in a public statement to assure the West that he was attempting to secure the Russian border---he did call for "enhanced measures" after that more Russian mercenaries and heavy weapons crossed that "enhanced secure border".

    1. it is the fault of the Ukraine as they are still fighting (Russia seems to forget Russian mercenaries are the deep cause of the fighting) and any country has the right for self defense
    2. it is the Ukraine's' fault because it happened over their territory
    3. a SU 25 shot down the airliner
    4. the Ukrainian government was trying to shot down Putin's aircraft missed and hit the Malaysian airliner--but wait he was already in Moscow for a long number of hours before the shot down
    5. "Statements by Kiev officials that such systems... were not used in air attacks arouse serious doubts," the Russian defence ministry said in a statement.
    6. and today these new ones----the airliner was in the Ukraine AD space in that area---which is a subtle misinformation ---so the motto is thus they must have shot it down because thy had AD units in the area
    7. a Russian military test pilot via Interfax stated that it had to be a Ukrainian missile that hit the airliner

    At this rate we will have ten reasons for the airliner shot down by Saturday if they keep up this public media misinformation rate and none of them have anything to do with either Russia and or Putin.

    I have never heard Russia flatly deny the voice intercept tapes admitting the shot down as either fakes or the work of the CIA or the SBU---thus that tells me they are real. In this business an none response is in fact a valid unspoken yes response to an accusation.

    It appears the Voice of Russia has lost it's own "Voice"---not a single comment in two days nor even a mention of the airliner being shot down. For a really talkative party line web service that preaches the party line this is strange.

    Maybe we should ask mirhond why?

    Reference point 5---it appears the Russians when writing the article failed to ask just what the Ukrainians going to shot at as the mercenaries have no aircraft. The radar station is the central means for a battery to be con trolled in a unified fashion---Russian failed to note that the mercenaries claimed they captured a single armored vehicle with the missiles but no central radar system on the 29th and posted a photo of it which "disappeared" from the web but not before it was grabbed. Nor did they comment on the online convoy video. Russia knows the Ukrainians are maintaining an active AD posture in order to watch Russian military aircraft movements thus that type of radar is always in sweep mode--nothing new there.

    “Throughout the day on July 17, Russian means of radar surveillance intercepted the operation of the Buk-M1 battery’s Kupol radar station located in the region of the populated area of Styla [30 kilometers south of Donetsk],” the press service said in a statement.
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 07-18-2014 at 11:44 AM.

  6. #46
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    And the Russian misinformation war drags on ---after finding all kinds of reasons why the shot down was the Ukrainian's fault Russia and Putin failed to mention this was stated last week in Moscow.

    maybe mirhond would like to give it his best fallacy comment.

    so mirhond---who were the "talented electrical specialists" he is talking about and what is this "civil society" that is providing all the Russian weapons you claim are not there?

    A week ago pro-Kremlin political analyst Sergei Kurguinjan said that separatists have an anti-aircraft missile system “Buk” and that they are ready to use it. This statement was published on Youtube on the 13th of July.

    According to Kurguinjan militants form the illegal armed formations in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions will receive weapons and armoured vehicles.

    “Civil society delivers a large number of armoured vehicles and other equipment on private terms. Russian civil society will never cross the line and will supply very modest equipment. They will not supply “Iskander” or C-300 or other ambitious systems because it is not in competence of a civil society to do so and because it is not needed,” – said the pro-Kremlin political analyst.

    According to him separatists have SAM “Buk”, which was allegedly “seized from the Ukrainian military”.

    “Our talented electricians will of course repair it. I think that the seized form the Ukrainian bandits-baderites system “Buk” it is already repaired. They will restore it in the near future. It will be restored. It is possible that there are few of them,” - said Kurguinjan.

    He stated unequivocally that the militants are ready to use the weapons. “I do not recommend to Kyiv to make any foolery,” – said Sergei Kurguinjan

    Notice that the statement today of the Ukrainian radar being used seems to have been overridden by this statement---meaning just how could the radars be turned on when they just got to the Donetsk area---and that reported by Russians?

    MOSCOW, July 18 (RIA Novosti) – Ukrainian battalions of 27 Buk-M1 missile systems able to hit targets across the entire altitude range have been deployed near the city of Donetsk, the Russian Defense Ministry said in a statement Friday.

    They are trying so hard to control the narrative --to the point they themselves are getting it confused.
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 07-18-2014 at 12:07 PM.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaur View Post
    Ps. mirhond, have you studied this source http://www.idinahui.net
    Poor kid, without valid arguments you degraded to blunt insults.

    here, read an article from Ukrainan media, where general prosecutor rejects that any air defence stuff has been captured by separatists http://www.pravda.com.ua/rus/news/2014/07/18/7032278/

    you tend to believe everything Ukrainian side says, so now you have to invent something new to blame separatists. (I give you a hint: they got Buks elsewhere )
    Last edited by mirhond; 07-18-2014 at 11:55 AM.
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  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by mirhond View Post
    Poor kid, without valid arguments you degraded to blunt insults.

    here, read an article from Ukrainan media, where general prosecutor rejects that any air defence stuff has been captured by separatistshttp://www.pravda.com.ua/rus/news/2014/07/18/7032278/

    you tend to believe everything Ukrainian side says, so now you have to invent something new to blame separatists.
    come on comrade Russian expert mirhond---you have completed bunked your own fallacies----noticed that you in fact gave the separatists a 60% chance for having shot down the plane. BY the way your own written words 60%.

    read my long list of the statements coming out of Moscow trying to blame the Ukrainians---they are up to seven different statements which at some point begins to make you and your bosses look like fools does it not mirhond.

    of course I can think of several more that have not been used as you all are so predictable these days as the misinformation war hit a wall the second the airliner was shot down and now you have to defend the killing of children and vacationers do you not mirhond?

    BY THE WAY mirhond---noticed in a statement released by Putin yesterday during a meeting---the Russian used by Putin used the term "killed" when he referred to the crash.

    YOU DO REALIZE this is a Russian military term for the use of a missile strike to "kill" an aircraft---this is common to him as he has just completed a whole series of AD exercises that he personally attended right mirhond?

    So in fact even your Putin "admits" a SAM was used---he just is trying to figure out who to blame but you yourself already did---60% the mercenaries was your answer right mirhond?

    so what fallacy are you going to use this time mirhond--- yours, the mercenaries or yes even Putin's?

  9. #49
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    Combining the open-source clues and facts it seems virtually certain that the Russian-led seperatists are responsible for the death of almost 300 civilians from all-around the world. The big question is now how will the (Western) world react to this mass-killing, especially in relations to Russia?

    The West has talked so far much about de-escalation while allowing Russia do escalate and escalate. Personally I always supported less mild sanctions against the Kremlin exactly because in my opinion far too mild and limited ones were encouraging Putin to push the borders of violence causing more and more deaths. Stronger support for Ukraine should have been the other main initiative. It would also helped Russia itself, which Putin is pushing into a dark place.
    Last edited by Firn; 07-18-2014 at 12:14 PM.
    ... "We need officers capable of following systematically the path of logical argument to its conclusion, with disciplined intellect, strong in character and nerve to execute what the intellect dictates"

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    Speech at the Kriegsakademie, 1935

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by mirhond View Post
    Poor kid, without valid arguments you degraded to blunt insults.

    here, read an article from Ukrainan media, where general prosecutor rejects that any air defence stuff has been captured by separatists http://www.pravda.com.ua/rus/news/2014/07/18/7032278/

    you tend to believe everything Ukrainian side says, so now you have to invent something new to blame separatists. (I give you a hint: they got Buks elsewhere )
    come on comrade Russian expert mirhond---do you not think blunt is actually quite good these days?---something you tend to run from right?

    being blunt---how do you justify the killing of children, parents, and vacationers in the name of "self determination" that both you and Putin claim the mercenaries are fighting for? or better killing civilians who are not even residents of either country in the name of "New Russia"?

    come on comrade let's keep the discussion blunt as blunt tends to weed out the chaff from the grain and my friend comrade you are right now backing the wrong horse and it is hard to now defend them---where is the "self determination" in the killing of children at 33,000 feet---when you all have been "complaining" about those Nazi's killing all those innocent DRP/LRP civilians---cannot have it both ways comrade.

    you are now getting your fallacies tangled up are you not?

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by mirhond View Post
    Poor kid, without valid arguments you degraded to blunt insults.

    here, read an article from Ukrainan media, where general prosecutor rejects that any air defence stuff has been captured by separatists http://www.pravda.com.ua/rus/news/2014/07/18/7032278/

    you tend to believe everything Ukrainian side says, so now you have to invent something new to blame separatists. (I give you a hint: they got Buks elsewhere )
    comrade Russian expert mirhond---are you actually stating that all these comments coming out of the DRP and Moscow that they have the BUK and it has been repaired are what---fakes---man there are a lot of fakes making a lot of fake comments these days and mirhond when will you join the club?

  12. #52
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    New tape from SBU about BUK-M and plane. At the moment in Russian. According to interception manned Buk arrived from Russia.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ygdqd...ature=youtu.be
    Last edited by kaur; 07-18-2014 at 12:29 PM.

  13. #53
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    Air India flight with 126 on board was right behind MH 17
    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/I...w/38601142.cms
    Just curious as to who did it to MH 17?

    And why were international flights overflying a war zone?

    Being not involved, can I know the reality sans the hostility, disinformation, psy ops and propaganda?
    Last edited by Ray; 07-18-2014 at 12:38 PM.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray View Post
    Just curious as to who did it to MH 17?

    And why were international flights overflying a war zone?
    So far all points that the (Pro)-Russians did it. We will see.

    The airlines and European air traffic control didn't react quickly enough to the latest SAM strikes against high-flying Ukrainian planes. It was not the 'usual' manpad thread anymore for some time. They got their risk assessment terribly wrong, indeed.
    ... "We need officers capable of following systematically the path of logical argument to its conclusion, with disciplined intellect, strong in character and nerve to execute what the intellect dictates"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray View Post
    And why were international flights overflying a war zone?
    It seems to be boringly normal. Until the shootdown, there was a NOTAM that the airways above 32kft were open as per normal. This had actually been upgraded from a prior NOTAM to not fly below (IIRC) 24kft, because it had been deemed impossible that the MANPAD threat would exist to airliners above that altitude. The increase to FL320 is a fairly recent phenomenon, and I'm not entirely sure the area wasn't closed off entirely following reports of rebel-held Buk systems.

    In any case, flying over warzones is fairly normal. Several airlines fly over Afghanistan on their normal routes, and I'm aware of a few that are negotiating to use Somalian airspace too.

  16. #56
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    comrade Russian expert mirhond--I will make you an open bet here at SWJ---those two Flight Data Recorders that the mercenaries say they found which is in itself interesting as the debris field was over 16 kms long but again then miracles do happen.

    I will bet they never seen the light of day---meaning Russia/Moscow will claim they were so damaged nothing was of use and or there will be long gaps in the recordings again leading to the statements from Moscow nothing of value or they were so badly damaged we could not even open them.

    Then I will bet you that Moscow will not even turn them over to either the Malaysian Airlines and or Boeing the maker of the airliner---why because those data recorders will have in fact recorded the actual missile impact.

    Moscow if it is being honest, truthful and a correct international law follower should have offered the West immediate access to those data recorders should they have not mirhond? So what is Moscow running from mirhond?

    Why not because they know what is on them and that can never see the light of the truth as that then would reveal all their previous statements to have been outright lies.

    See mirhond---those recorders are designed to withstand even the impact and fire that happened if they were in fact still in the tail of the plane wonder if the Cossacks knew that?

    By the way---if the reporting from the crash sight is correct and it has tended to be correct complete bodies and large pieces of plane debris were falling along that 16 kms debris field---that is the telltale sign of a massive explosion and then the structural collapse at 33,000 feet.

    Believe me there will be trace amounts of explosive residue on all the plane parts nearest to the explosion and that cannot be simply "wiped clean" as well as the pellet holes from the pellets that are in the SA11 warhead

    This is the same type of debris field seen in the Lockerbie Pan Am crash caused by a bomb---which I know all about as five friends of mine died in that flight as they were in a part of the plane blown out still in their seats into the long debris field.

    Good luck to the Cossacks in trying to wash a 16 kms debris field.

    NOW what are you going to bet if in fact I am right mirhond---a copy of your Russian ID or passport will be enough do you not think as you refused that a while ago after offering it did you not?
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 07-18-2014 at 12:56 PM.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    So you are stating the SU 25 story released by the rebels is a smoke screen--there has been an armored convoy on the move reported today heading towards the Russian border which had a BUK system within it all just after the global reporting on the possible shot down started.
    Apologies for not replying earlier. Yes, the suggestion that a Frogfoot might have shot down an airliner at that altitude is as credible as suggesting that Santa Claus was his wingman. It's very, very unlikely, and even if somehow the aircraft could physically maneuver at that altitude, there would be an enormous amount of radio chat in directing the pilot to intercept, considering it doesn't have a radar set up to intercept aircraft. It's in roughly the same class of aircraft as the A-10 is.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaur View Post
    New tape from SBU about BUK-M and plane. At the moment in Russian. According to interception manned Buk arrived from Russia.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ygdqd...ature=youtu.be
    Do you even realise that Buk-M consists of 5 (five) vehicles?

    Launch vehicle


    loading vehicle


    command vehicle


    target acquisition and designation vehicle


    missile guidance vehicle
    what we see on video? Blurred image of the solo launch vehicle. What we hear - anonimous vioces evicting themselves. Conclusion - entire video is Bravo Sierra, as usual. Stop pouring ukrainian media BS here, find real stuff, like you did when "The tale of three little tanks" was popular. I believe you can do it.

    ps. To outlaw Please, by the name of God, Dear Lord, or what else you worship, DO NOT CITE THIS ENTIRE POST six times in the row! Have mercy on other users, pretty please!
    Last edited by mirhond; 07-18-2014 at 01:02 PM.
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    mirhond, you genius, it seems that you don't understand how Buk may operate. Go and do your homework. If this is done, then visit this site again http://www.idinahui.net/
    Last edited by kaur; 07-18-2014 at 01:02 PM.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by mirhond View Post
    Do you even realise that Buk-M consists of 5 (five) vehicles?

    Launch vehicle


    loading vehicle


    command vehicle


    target acquisition and designation vehicle


    missile guidance vehicle


    what we see on video? Blurred image of the solo launch vehicle. What we hear - anonimous vioces evicting themselves. Conclusion - entire video is Bravo Sierra, as usual. Stop pouring ukrainian media BS here, find real stuff, like you did when "The tale of three little tanks" was popular. I believe you can do it.

    ps. To outlaw Please, by the name of God, Dear Lord, or what else you worship, DO NOT CITE THIS ENTIRE POST six times in the row! Have mercy on other users, pretty please!
    come on comrade Russian expert mirhond---even the Russian mercenaries "claimed" they captured only one vehicle---now if you are the Russian expert you think you are ---the missiles can in fact be launched from the onboard radar that the armored vehicle itself has---all the other radars are used to coordinate a larger AD area.

    The radar is there if you really look at the missile carrier---all to be seen---allows it to fire on the move as it was designed to accompany moving armored units.

    The SAM6 had the same onboard capabilities.

    BUT co0mrade Russian expert you already knew that ---right?

    Now for a key question what are the "electricians" doing in the first place working on the captured BUK from the 29th and there are indications that the "civil society" and who are they pray tell?---delievered one or more actual missiles to be fitted on the "repaired" S11 missile carrier.

    Hey all of the above para came from a Russian statement in Mosco last week.

    The delivery of the S11 missile or missiles has been confirmed by NATO intelligence today---that is if you read German.

    Ein hochrangiger Nato-Offizier sagte SPIEGEL ONLINE am Freitag, es gebe mittlerweile berzeugende Geheimdienst-Erkenntnisse, dass das Flugzeug mit einer Rakete aus dem Bestand der russischen Armee abgeschossen wurde. Solche Systeme wurden laut dem Nato-Mann in den vergangenen Wochen von russischer Seite an die Separatisten geliefert. Bis heute gebe es kein schlssiges Motiv fr die prorussischen Krfte, ein ziviles Flugzeug anzugreifen. Deswegen msse man von einem "tragischen Versehen" der Separatisten ausgehen.

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